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out of curiousity, How many of you guys make a good living with music alone?
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 15, 2008 11:45
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Thinking about it. the sort of evidence this dude presents would be used as proof by another experimenter that the experiment methodology is flawed. |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Jul 15, 2008 18:52
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 15, 2008 19:18
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interesting reversal. do u have any evidence for the "as yet unexplained" existing in the 1st place?
Or maybe I should rather qualify do you have any personal experiences that are "as yet unexplained"? Or are you just going on hearsay? |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Jul 15, 2008 19:43
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 16, 2008 10:14
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Colin - looks like Ive really gotten your goat. I actually never knew u were so sensitive.
All spiritual dudes - this behaviour is fairly typical, whenever you actually look really closely at the taboos and cherished beliefs, you find that they are based on really really thin fallacies and assumptions.
Till now I have no reason to believe you guys KNOW any better than the next guy, what the unexplained events that happen to people around the planet actually are. Which means that you cannot responsibly postulate dubious claims like consciousness precedes the universe or whatever. U can of course to ignorant peasants who don't have a critical inkling, but then again when you come up against someone who knows all the bullshit tricks it gets a bit harder.
You guys are hiding away from reality in your cherished beliefs, and this is an objective critical assessment, not a "point of view" or opinion.
Stephen hawking who reckons the multiple universe theory is the best theory of reality we have according to occam's razor, knows that its an unproven theoretical conjecture, which "supports some views". However mystical cunts like citrine dragon attest that theory and assume it to be true as a springboard to more mystical madness. This is nothing more than hype until the next theory comes along and the whole goddamn thing starts all over again.
I challenge you all to produce one example of anything weird that really stands up to criticism. If not to fight with me, then to altruistically be nice to me and show me how incredibly wrong my understanding of the world is. Please? |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Jul 16, 2008 11:12
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The only thing that will authentically change your perception is your own experience. Plenty of people have 'experiences' and I would not expect someone who really has not to have any understanding of that, and that is natural.
Putting the experience into perspective proves to be troublesome. Just brain cells and biological mechanics VS consciousness is real, and much is "unknown" ...
Anything said here is easily criticized, and wont help prove anything anyway, so why bother? Any experimental results will be shot down on its methodology when the results contrast the current paradigm, or you'll just call them some asshole this or that and its not really worth my time to continue trying to convince someone who is not really open to new ideas. Time is finite and there are better things to do!
You obviously have some personal issues regarding this topic.
Rather than taking pot shots at each other here, go buy the book "Integral Spirituality" by Ken Wilber and take the time to read it before shooting it down, you might help you to see that the spiritual dimension is not unreconcilable with science, models, and common sense.
http://www.amazon.com/Integral-Spirituality-Startling-Religion-Postmodern/dp/1590303466
Goodluck
 Cytopia.org
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 16, 2008 11:59
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The reason I don't want to "buy" it is because its certainly a scam, which you dudes are not willing to acknowledge. Do you have any free links? suspicious isn't it?
heres a quote on a criticism of that book.
Wilber confesses, however:
"The correlations I am about to summarize are in themselves contentious and difficult to prove. But we will simply [sic!] assume them for the moment."
THIS IS TYPICAL TYPICAL TYPICAL BULLSHIT!
starting from a "higher" idea and then looking for correlation from observations, instead of building up from observations, so that we can at least KNOW wtf, instead of assuming we know & then massaging the evidence.
Also the book starts out by assuming all his previous religious/spiritual crap instead of justifying their assumption. Cant u see through this Cytopia? every religious text is like this, We assume that the great god exists, or that the great consciousness exists, therefore peace and whatever is the best way.
Bullshit. |
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Fragletrollet
Fragletrollet
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
1748
Posted : Jul 17, 2008 00:34
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Jul 17, 2008 00:39
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NOT reading a book and rejecting it as bullshit is really deep.
Congratulations. You win.
All the ideas introduced in many books that you know nothing about (because you did not read them)are all false, because you say so. And of course you know all about the content because you already know everything.
Cytopia.org
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bandarlog
Bandarlog
Started Topics :
44
Posts :
809
Posted : Jul 17, 2008 01:28
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Besides, there is a huge amount of mathematics based on axioms which is the exact same thing: presuming something would be the case/truth and building on that. The results of these axioms have proven themselves functional in human history allthough quantum physics (which I know jack shit about) would falsify or doubt much of the axioms we build our society on. And we're not even talking the less exact social sciences here which is completely based on presumtions and adhoc correlations (but which still proves its value everyday). So stating that a book is bullshit when it starts out with axioms is quite ignorant to me.
(ps: interesting discussion here! I tend to agree on some matters with both extremes (bukboy vs the people  )
http://www.soundcloud.com/bandarlog
http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/bandarlog-memoirs-of-the-moment |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jul 17, 2008 03:59
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I really dont know what you discuss.. i bet its interesting 
what i do think is that we create our own reality to a large extent and that things can happen if we use active thinking, which will lead us to action in that direction.
the mind can play tricks, games and everything.
what i find interesting is ocultisms like
Astrology
Magic
Alchemy
Spiritism
Anthroposophy
This dont say that im not a critic, as i said the mind can play tricks and we can push our selfs to believe in almost anything...
its a fine line keeping things healthy!
sometimes it seems like we want to outsmart our selfs, figure out our deepths... maybe its not a good idea, maybe we should just embrase the magic of the mind and not try to outsmart it!
anyway we will probably fall because we try to outsmart our selfs...
I think many people make big mistakes casue the make up things in their heads and follow through, the truth is not always what we make of it, maybe nothing matters so why push our selfs too hard...
just some thoughts..
So how many of you guys make a good living out of music alone??
Hahaha
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 17, 2008 09:30
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cytopia - can u just for 1 second entertain that I have a point? that your sources of information are scam artists bent on making money out of u? just for a second? I mean isn't human credulity the oldest revenue stream?
just for 1 sec? Or is it just impossible. and you will never look at your "non-fiction" books as "mistakes" (if not deliberate lies) to milk your cash?
Anyway the whole premise of the book is flawed, comparing faiths, religions and beliefs is like comparing dreams. Pretty useless unless u can justify one of them to be true.
Fraggletrollet - truth is not a subjective concept(it exists despite us and our beliefs), it does not have degrees (half true, half false), and it is not relative (different for everyone.) Moreover truth is consistent and non contradictory.
People have lied to you if you were told otherwise. painful? but TRUE. someone doesn't accept that? thats called avoiding the truth. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 17, 2008 10:00
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bandarlog - the axioms of mathematics and physics yield functional results that therefore justify those axioms practically. Religion, and mysticism doesnt yield ANY functional results (besides giving comfort to gullible people AND a very real revenue stream.)
Thats the difference. One is useful the other is a scam.
NB quantum mechanics is not as bizzare as people make it out to be. You must consider that a lot of scientists also need revenue streams so they hype their theories to capture the public imagination. This is very true of the multiple universe theory, and string field theory.
Do you realise that there are no ways to prove (or even test) these theoretical conjectures? Which should make you skeptical as to their value besides of course attention for the egoistic mathematician behind them. |
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Fragletrollet
Fragletrollet
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
1748
Posted : Jul 17, 2008 13:31
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Quote:
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On 2008-07-17 09:30, bukboy wrote:
Fraggletrollet - truth is not a subjective concept(it exists despite us and our beliefs), it does not have degrees (half true, half false), and it is not relative (different for everyone.) Moreover truth is consistent and non contradictory.
People have lied to you if you were told otherwise. painful? but TRUE. someone doesn't accept that? thats called avoiding the truth.
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Wow, so you really believe there is one truth wich is existing outside ourselves?
Anyways, arent you proposing a subjective truth right now?
Maybe the "truth" is so big and modular that you are given the possibility to create it in your own image? And how can you be sure on anything of what you say?
Truth not contradictory? You really mean this? When you say this, it is a sign for me that we are living in such different realities that i understand you even less...
I think everyone is creating their reality out of what they think is "plausible". There might be one ground to build realities out of, but it is so big and modular it is impossible to fit it into a speech-cathegorization, calling it the "one" truth. Then again, we are all one, so in the end, there is only one 
http://www.myspace.com/fragletrollet
http://www.myspace.com/unknowncausesound
http://www.fragletrollet.com/ |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 17, 2008 15:01
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Fraggletrollet -
"Truth" is only a name we use for "correct" statements. "This is a seat" is true if indeed the object is made for the purpose of sitting on.
Contradiction is a direct relation that excludes the possibility that two statements that are contradictory are true. So if I say "this is a seat", and you say "no, that is not a seat" then at least one of them must be false, because both of them cannot be true.
The definition of the objective is "everything that is true whether we believe it or not"
And the subjective "is everything else"
So the objective contains everything that is correct and nothing that is false(irrespectively of what we believe)
However, when I can show that a concept is contradictory with another, then I can prove that it is not objective, (i.e. not real)
Now in the case of "spirituality", my main objection is that the teachers who teach it, cannot possibly KNOW the things they are teaching are true, so therefore even though what they say may be true, it cannot be knowledge. And if it cannot be knowledge, then Y are these scummy conmen teaching this crap? |
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