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out of curiousity, How many of you guys make a good living with music alone?
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jul 10, 2008 02:23
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Quote:
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On 2008-07-09 11:56, bukboy wrote:
undertow, I was raised in a catholic family, then I became interested in witchcraft and spirituality, then I became a christian, then I became a subjectivist, then I became a moral realist, then I became an agnostic, and finally now I am an atheist.
The thing that was holding me back when I was an agnostic was that I always thought there has to be some reason for there being "good" things to do in the world, like get up in the morning, learn and become more intelligent, create etc, so I held on to some belief about morals being above physical and kept a place open for the unknown, but richard dawkins showed that morals can come about through simple ordinary everyday evolutionary game theory. (evolutionary stable strategy)
By no means does this prove that the supernatural doesnt exist, but it provides a plausible rational alternative as to why we have good and bad etc.
And considering that the supernatural is constructed in such a way as to make it completely untesteable and unfalsifiable, so much so that it has no predictive benefit, I have the choice between a fantastically accurate scientific view of the world, and a supernatural host of dogmas created by people without a scientific background. (i.e. STUPID LAZY FUCKS)
At which point I really saw the world. I am an atheist now and I have no doubt about its truth, and that every religion and call to mysticism is a flat out lie.
I have been bombarded by religion salesmen and spirituality SALESMEN all my life in our fucked up culture. I have wasted so much of my life believing this CHRISTSHIT that now i feel so free. I feel so FREE. I can see.
I have been freed from this mental prison we call the supernatural.
U see, for me to tolerate the comments from other spiritualists amounts to moral sanction for lies and extortion.
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You were christian, a believer of an organized religion. Then you became an atheist. You just moved to the other extreme, nothing else changed. You still look at the outside world. Once again I urge you to try the inwards approach. You have obviously never experienced it. Thus you keep trying to explain it in objective logical terms. God, it is like trying to tell a blind guy what the color red looks like...  Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Mr.Pibb
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
1
Posted : Jul 10, 2008 03:24
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As a live sound engineer, pretty well. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 10, 2008 10:34
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Ok dudes. lets try a different approach.
what kind of questions does "spirituality" ask? and what kind of answers does it give.
Is spirituality a search for truth?
if so what are its methods?
philosophy is a search for truth, at a highly abstract level, i.e. it uses common sense and self-consistency as its tools, and therefrom the branches of logic, epistemology, ontology, mathematics, science etc spring. Its results are heuristically evolved based on previous knowledge of self consistency of the new concepts.
science is a search for truth, which uses the tools of logic, experimentation, hypotheses and consistency with what we already know, to break new ground.
Its results are confirmation or falsification, of the hypotheses that are designed to mimic "reality", and from there the process is reevaluated heuristically and starts again ad infinitum.
What is the "spiritual" search for truth? what are its tools? what are its results?
Is that not a fair question? |
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
655
Posted : Jul 10, 2008 13:41
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Oh man, this is pretty awesome........
anytime i start reading interesting topic in this forum it completely changes themes after some while.
cant get this man...... there´s somebody askin serious question and now we´re talkin bout religion, confessions, conspiracy and things like that. pretty awesome really......=)
to the topic question.....have look for trancemap. get a country seriously involved in psytrance community. if this is really such important thing to you. i´m from germany, so over here there´s really much in festivals and psy parties and communities for that. but believe me. its not the location gets u started.
time will come and people will probably hear the results of your hard work. has nothin to do where u live. but until that is long hard road, and the more there is the more people u have offerin their music.
i know united states is kinda hard to get something started. but take the chance and try. be glad there is no community and start yourself one. in my opinion best thing u can have....
think the only important thing is, that your expenses for life are paid. if ur musician u have to pay very long time, to get machines , synths and stuff like that u need, and more time, to educate yourself. after this, u will be able to realise your own ideas, sounds or partys....whatever. and there u got it. the basic thing is to offer something new and profession. but when u reached that point u have to keep it. thats reason why u should sell music at any point, cause u need other synth or other machine to keep this whole thing rollin.
but sure it is able to live from few bookings and some releases. just a thing what u had before. 4 me, i had really everything and reached the point to have nothin at all. got no problem to live from few hundred € a month. with few i mean 2 or 3 hundred.... thats all i need. very decent life, but quit nice one.
but i also know feelins bout sellin what u love. but i´m lil bit more on this, cause if i really love, i should sell. cause if i dont do, i will reach a point where its not possibe anymore to share this with other people. your sound will stay same if u will not do something.
point is i never earned a fu*#n cent with my music except few times as DJ cause i never wanted. And if it makes u happy and u got other job, its no prob to give all away for free. but there r people out there dont doin any other like in music. me either!!!
but there r also artists out there dont know shit about livin from few hundred euros, cause they got their bookings every month, their releases and start cryin cause they have no money. BUT MAN, they have life and dont wanna see. promoters are payin for travellin the world. and there are artists payin this by themselves, leavin home and everything they had, like Mubali said and sure many others did, without havin any fu*kin cent to come around.
So point is, u just have to decide yourself which way u wanna go. doin music, just do and dont think a shit about releasin, cause if your stuff is fit for that, someone will hear it.
and bout this spiritual thing in this thread.....dont know what this got to do with the topic. think we´re all individuals, different countries, different roots, and whatever u wanna call it, it made this world like this, and it works perfect even if we dont wanna accept this..... but if u think about, world could not work better. its just the time we cant understand. everything is like it has to be........
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Boo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
41
Posts :
89
Posted : Jul 11, 2008 15:15
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very nice thread 
i really liked mubali's comment
(only read page 1 tho ) |
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vegetal
Vegetal/Peacespect
Started Topics :
19
Posts :
1055
Posted : Jul 11, 2008 16:09
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
431
Posted : Jul 12, 2008 08:36
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Quote:
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On 2008-07-10 10:34, bukboy wrote:
What is the "spiritual" search for truth? what are its tools? what are its results?
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1.yoga
2.meditation and realization, knowledge
3.transcending material and attaining the spiritual world, realizing ultimate truth
spiritual search is a shortcut to truth while all other are longer ways around
BTW great post mandari.. http://www.myspace.com/djacidkills
http://soundcloud.com/acidkills/dropbox |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 12, 2008 19:31
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For a proposition to be knowledge, it has to be:
1. True
2. Justified
In order to claim that anything spiritual is knowledge, it has to obey these rules, so therefore is there anything that is spiritual knowledge that is true and there is a justification for believing it?
All I can see is that the spiritual search for knowledge is a collection of heresay, and personal subjective mystic imagination.
Has noone here bothered to ask the basic question of how your teachers know what they know? |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Jul 12, 2008 20:08
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Learn from your own experience, not everything we experience is easily quantified. The quality of one's experience is difficult to transfer to others who have not had a similar experience themselves.
If thousands (if not more) people have practiced meditation and report intense clarity of mind, and depth of being, does that not in itself quality as scientific evidence? You cannot measure the content of our experience of consciousness in terms of the neurology that facilitates the experience.
You can certainly argue for reductionism, but even then, all we experience is not "just" chemical reactions. There is a lot going on. The contents of our mind and our intension, interest etc is not "just" mechanisms...
Consciousness is real, and we really are sentient beings. That in itself is fascinating, and the cosmic developmental process that has allowed this to manifest is experienced by many as divine, because it is intensely creative and so very much bigger than we are. Some people call that process itself "GOD" it is just a metaphor for the process we refer to as Nature.
Cytopia.org
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 12, 2008 20:56
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So then its just a search for inner experiences? is that all that spirituality is?
Il grant you that its something all of our brains can do with sufficient training, but is it really special, supernatural or universal?
Y bring those concepts together? If you remove the supernatural from the picture and make spirituality into a physical only concept then I have no problem with it. |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Jul 14, 2008 00:24
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Jul 14, 2008 11:43
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Dick Bierman at the University of Amsterdam has done some interesting research on what he refers to as "Quantum effects" in response to visual stimuli.
The effect has been replicated many times, and one of the follow up papers can be read the link below:
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/pdfs/presentiment.pdf
His papers are not only published online but also in peer reviewed journals.
Cytopia.org
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 14, 2008 12:55
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Colin, so basically what I call physical you call natural?
Is that an accurate summary?
Why does spirituality contain such an unfortunate reference to spirit? Y not just get rid of the concept and redefine it with this inherent ambiguity?
Y dont the intelligent "naturalists" shun the word simply because of the ambiguity? I mean calling myself "mystical spirit" wouldnt make me thus, it would just irritate any objective (scientifically focused) individuals into ignoring my conversation.
Cytopia - Thats a very interesting study, the only thing that bothers me while reading the whole paper is that somehow, theres some stimulus that the researchers had not figured on, and the dudes somehow figured out subconsciously that the next pic would be awesome vs gruesome, like maybe the brightness of the monitor, or the loading of the image was slightly longer coz it was bigger, etc. So Im not convinced, I think the methodology is flawed. Would love to do the test though.
Also I think the bias of the testers is under question. This test is obviously designed with only the purpose of confirming prescience, so the scientists themselves are probably only masquerading as objective observers. |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Jul 14, 2008 14:13
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The Rosenthal effect refers to the phenomenon in which experimenter expectations effect the outcome of an experiment. It is theorized to be facilitated via body language in experimenter - test subject interactions. Conclusion is that objectivity obscured by experimenter expectation, and the implication is modified standardized experimental design.
Rosenthal himself did experiments to 'prove' the Rosenthal effect which significantly supported the existance of the effect. The paradox in that experiment is whether the Rosenthal effect was supported or not, because the positive result itself could be the Rosenthal effect since he had the expectation it would exist, but that can only be true if the Rosenthal effect does exist
The Quantum effect in that paper was originally discovered while doing research on stress reaction to visual stimuli, they unexpectedly noticed the reaction was a millisecond before the negative stimulus , and they have looked closely at the timing of the measurements to ensure it was not a mistake, and yes they have looked at possible ways for the subject to detect the nature of the next photograph.
Follow up research is looking specifically to see under which circumstances the effect can be replicated.
Objectivity is hard to achieve, but you can design experiments to be replicated by others with good design, and if the same results are consistent then something is going on. I can probably find more research papers on this that are not available online, I'll try to post them.
People's tendency is to be really critical of the methodology of experiments in which they do not agree with the conclusion, and less critical when they support and agree with the conclusion. The art in science is to be objective in both cases, that way we can learn new things and discover the unknown.
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 14, 2008 17:37
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Also people tend to be more critical of experiments whose conclusions are sensationalist and fly in the face of common sense.
Not so? More so anyone accepting those conclusions prematurely is irresponsible and suspect as a critical objective observer.
Creationists love to come to conclusions which benefit their agenda, i.e. disgracing evolution etc, and invest heavily in the supporting hype prematurely, as if the test was so objective as to make the result obvious. (It seems that creationists have more political marketing staff then scientific staff working for the cause)
Which is Y I reserve judgment on anything thats surprising till much later.(i.e. junk and pseudo science with a political agenda)
But till then, is this the only justification behind the supernatural of "naturalism"? |
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