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out of curiousity, How many of you guys make a good living with music alone?
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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329
Posted : Jul 6, 2008 22:12
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Quote:
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On 2008-07-06 08:15, bukboy wrote:
Cytopia - nothing weird or unexplainable has ever happened to me. show me one conclusive example and I will thank you. No-one wants make believe to be real more than me. Truly, my life would be complete, knowing that I was not completely replaceable and insignificant in the universe.
Your long post was fine until you started asserting unsubstantiated opinions. Saying that science has been wrong in the past, does not allow you to come to conclusions that fairytales could be true.
My shallowness is a product of my triumphant cynicism, please prove me wrong, because my side doesn't have any vested interests in believing made up shit, and has far more hard evidence than yours.
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Your triumphant cynicism is what holds you back, some things are not provable by analytical arguments or scientific evidence.
There is more to spirituality then is measurable, it has to do with people's interest and intension in life, perspective, context and perception.
I really think you are uninformed in this area. An interesting author for you to read is Ken Wilber, he has a new book called integral spirituality which (in addition to other things) also puts into context some of the points you made in your previous posts about some people being resposible and others not, this again has to do with people's intension to create, innovate and contribute, or to leach, in a developmental perspective.
Some interesting experiments have been described in two books by Lynn McTaggart about the field of consciousness, and intension experiments, using scientific designs.
I shit you not.
Sander
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JUGGERNAUT
IsraTrance Junior Member
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18
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111
Posted : Jul 7, 2008 03:41
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Spirituality isn't bullshit bukboy ! And it hasn't got a label beneath it either. It isn't about Christianity or Buddhism or Muslims. It is about you, your spirit, yourself. About how you communicate with the rest of beings, your surroundings and your planet. And above all, how you communicate with your inner self.
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Right on brotha! |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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803
Posted : Jul 7, 2008 14:16
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I think the problem is that spirituality has such a nebulous definition that anyone can say it and mean whatever they like. And when pressed on the issue they can just say - hey thats not what I meant. Its a convenient way of dodging criticism, sorta like tha creationists dodge bible criticism by saying "hey we don't believe in that" but brandish a bible at all other occasions.
Definitions of spirituality on the Web:
* This term signifies an attempt to find the god within and without and battle negativity.
www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2904223/k.9A02/New_Age_Glossary.htm
* A specific way of living some particular aspect of the Gospel.
www.holyfamilybordeaux.org/glossary.html
* This is generally understood to refer to the path of awareness. Unfortunately, however, this term usually refers to a realm which is outside. For example, “spiritual” has been divided from “physical.” Yet in authentic awareness, there can be no such division.Back to Top
www.ishvara.org/Pages/glossary.html
* that personal function which relates my life's meaning to transpersonal reality. [Spirituality is subjective, and is not necessarily defined by association with a certain tradition or by organizational affiliation.]
home.earthlink.net/~dbscr/glossconsc.htm
* Buddhism,;Cross-denominational terms; Eastern Orthodoxy; Evangelical; Hinduism; Islam; Jehovah's Witness; Judaism; Kwanzaa; LDS (Mormon); Lutheranism; Miscellaneous terms; Native American spirituality; Religions and denominations; Roman Catholicism and Episcopalianism; Wicca; Worldwide Church of ...
www.theinterpretersfriend.com/tech/vocab/cd.html
* a sense of meaning and purpose, a sense of self and of relationship with 'that which is greater than self', and also practices such as ...
www.tetradian.com/Glossary
* Spirituality is the spirit in which we live our lives. Spirituality is the particular emphasis we give the Gospel of Jesus which is the source of ...
www.ssccpicpus.com/pag.aspx
* A way of living that emphasises a constant awareness of the spiritual dimension of nature, without any acknowledgement of a contractual relationship between the material world and the spiritual. Neopagan religions generally will not worship, but stress spirituality. ...
www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/glossary.htm
* An inner sense of something greater than oneself. Recognition of a meaning to existence that transcends one's immediate circumstances.
www.nature.com/nri/journal/v4/n11/glossary/nri1486_glossary.html
* (SPIR-ih-choo-A-lih-tee) Having to do with deep, often religious, feelings and beliefs, including a person’s sense of peace, purpose, connection to others, and beliefs about the meaning of life.
www.ecancerawareness.com/cancer_glossary/s.php
* a conscious, dynamic, progressive, and integrative process in which human individuals and/or societies achieve their fullest potential in a condition of unity. ...
www.efpinternational.org/elearning/mod/glossary/view.php
* the experience of meaning and unity.
wps.prenhall.com/chet_spector_cultural_6/10/2795/715705.cw/index.html
* Calcite, Diamond, Lepidolite, Sphene, Sugilite
www.shoprg.com/JewelryByD/MiscInfo.htm
* spiritualty: property or income owned by a church
* concern with things of the spirit
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
* Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit. Spiritual matters are those involving humankind's ultimate nature, not only as material biological organisms, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is beyond both time and the material world. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
* Spirituality is the nameless brother of Eris and Aneris from Discordian mythology. When his sisters complained to their father Void that he had forgotten his first-born, Void then declared that Spirituality was to reside with Aneris in non-being for a time, after which he would go to Eris in ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality (Discordianism)
* Concern for that which is unseen and intangible, as opposed to physical or mundane; Appreciation for religious values
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spirituality
* is, in a narrow sense, a concern with matters of the spirit, however that may be defined; but it is also a wide term with many available readings. ...
www.experiencefestival.com/a/spirituality/id/570457
i.e. no-one knows what the fuck it is, and my theory on this is to deliberately be nebulous.
Ken Wilber looks like the master of coolness. which means ... like he says stuff for attention.
Do you have any free links?
The mctaggert woman sounds like she is an example of a chick that wants stuff that she imagined to be true, but cant quite find the evidence she needs to back it up. which means its wishful thinking. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Jul 7, 2008 16:01
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undertow -
the definition of "artifact" is - An artifact is anything made, a product of intention rather than of nature, accident, or causal process. ...
would you say your definition of spirituality, as are all the others, is artificial? like all the other things we have that are artificial, like money, society and morals? |
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pilgrim
IsraTrance Junior Member
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19
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218
Posted : Jul 7, 2008 16:50
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Jul 7, 2008 17:03
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First point:
Any 'definition' of anything is necessarily an artifact (in your terms), as definitions arise from the intentional human traits of curiosity and the desire to organise and categorise.
However you have to remember that the definition is not itself the thing it defines; the map is not the territory, and if there's one thing that people who live their lives according to their experiences of the numinous agree, it's that the spritual experience cannot be put into words without losing most of its meaning. Now Bukboy, you'd probably say that was just an escape clause - a way to get out of defining exactly what it was, so that it could be twisted into meaning anything you want. This would be a sign that you have never experienced anything of that sort yourself, which is fine - we all lead different lives and each life is as essential to the proper order of the universe as any other - but absolutely does NOT entitle you to rubbish ways of life which arise out of circumstances and experiences different to your own.
When you accuse those talking about spirituality of being 'deliberately nebulous' so that they can 'convenient[ly] dodg[e] criticism', can you see how you might beprojecting onto them your OWN tendency to be evasive, obfuscatory and economical with the truth in order to serve your own ends? We see those traits in others that we refuse to see in ourselves; this is something I have learned in my own life and something I have seen others learn too... perhaps it might help.
Personally I think a decent 'spitirual experience' would sort you right out; preferably one that didn't come from drugs.
Second point:
Drug-induced spiritual experiences. Your main objection to their validity seems to me to be based around the idea that because you've taken a drug, your experience is generated solely from within the brain and is therefore invalid. I've got news for you - every single experience you will ever have is generated solely from within the brain. Our consciousness has no contact whatsoever with anything that can be defined as 'objective reality'; our perceptions are mediated by the brain, which interprets stimuli from outside and interacts with our consciousness to produce the sensation of reality. Consider the idea that LSD 'turns off the filters' in our brains that prevent us from being overwhelmed by the 99.99999999999999999999999% of data entering our senses which is irrelevant to everyday life; who is to say with absolute certainty that this is incorrect? Not me, and certainly not you.
Personally I think it's important not to get caught up in belief systems of any kind; psychedelic, religious, spiritual, material/economic, moral, political... they are all inventions and brainwashing, and none of them are 'real'. As Robert Anton Wilson said:
Quote:
| The world is controlled by belief systems - BS. Don't believe totally in anybody's BS. [S]econd[ly:] don't believe totally in your own BS." |
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I think you have a lot of BS to get out of your system.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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803
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 00:41
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u see. I actually feel like I see above the BS - I actually do. I see everything from an impartial objective vantage. The whole of evolution of species, memes, language, society, war, morality, religion, to "spirituality". Everything is so clearly perfectly material, every rule which governs everything is so physical. Your ancestors, parents and children all following an evolutionary material direction, so00 obviously we are born, live, get married , make children, work, die in parallel. Everything so physical, and the only thing which has no bearing on anything is our spiritual beliefs.
About your first point, so ur actually telling me that if I try to define what you guys have come up with, Im gonna destroy what uve come up with? How dumb, obviously if I can falsify what you believe then what u believe is wrong. After all how could I falsify the true?
Im sorry but ineffable is just not gonna cut it, if someone cannot precisely state their point, then they havent really understood what their point is now have they? And until you can actually can tell me what u believe spirituality is, and it doesnt differ between other people then Im just gonna call it an intensely personal religion, i.e. subjective bullshit. & I will certainly not refrain from calling spirituality a bullshit deception that it is.
regarding the second point - is a mental patient considered to be dimension travelling? esspecially one who has a vacant unresponsive stare? how about one that got hit by a car? is he hallucinating anything undemented and damaged. Is someone who has taken a drug to be excused with how other people react when their brain is damaged or working incorrectly? I think its harder to prove your case. I think consciousness is a very fragile thing, not something reaching into another plane of existence by default. Its just a tiny flame based on a human candle, not a consciousness light from another universe. |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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329
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 01:33
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I think it has to be about being authentic, I don't think we are going to be able to find a definition on the meaning of life, but we can find the same place of interest in other people that we find in ourselves when we are passionate and interesting in finding out what life is, consciousness is and how what it means to live in the strange world we live in.
Blows my mind whenever I think of the entire process, and how much development and evolution has gone into our design and the emergence of consciousness on earth, and I find my interest in this a spiritual matter because it is a deeper part of myself that is interested in this, and I feel it resonates beyond my rational mind, to something referred to as spirit.
People have always tried to make sense of life and some old ideas do not make sense to us now, but the authentic urge to want to know the source of life itself, is something real and universal, even if the conclusions people have come to have been different according to the time they lived in, and some of the wacky ideas people have come up with.
I think it is about making sense of life and following your deepest passionate impulse, rather than being a prisoner of our rational conditioned minds, thinking we already know rather than leaving some room for the unknown.
Writing it all off as bullocks is too easy. It's like reducing love for a friend to 'just' chemical reactions in the brain. Those chemical reactions play a part in facilitating the experience, but how is it that we find intense meaning? What part of us understands that it is partly chemical reactions, is that another chemical reaction, if so, what sees and understands that? And why would a chemical reaction care about another human being?
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
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329
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 01:59
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On 2008-07-08 00:41, bukboy wrote:
Everything so physical, and the only thing which has no bearing on anything is our spiritual beliefs.
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The material world is physical, but the content of that is not only that, who we are is beyond the mechanics of the thoughts or body, what about your spirit? The essence of choice, curiosity, creativity, interest, is this simply pre-programmed in our genes by natural selection? Or are you free to choose and create?
If it just mechanistic evolution, then how did the process start? Where did it come from? Where did life come from? Where did that come from? Where did the basic elements come from? And before that? ...
May not be answerable questions, but they do have bearing on something.
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Jul 8, 2008 03:59
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On 2008-07-08 00:41, bukboy wrote:
u see. I actually feel like I see above the BS - I actually do. |
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The fact that you ceaselessly propound one way of living to be better than all others is proof that you do not.
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| About your first point, so ur actually telling me that if I try to define what you guys have come up with, Im gonna destroy what uve come up with? |
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Nope. I'm saying that if you try to define the numinous in words, you will fail.
You might also destroy it, but only for yourself 
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Im sorry but ineffable is just not gonna cut it, if someone cannot precisely state their point, then they havent really understood what their point is now have they? |
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Define 'love'. Apparently you feel it; you have a girlfriend (at least you did in one of your earlier posts; hopefully she's still with you). Define it completely and totally, leaving nothing out.
The word 'ineffable' exists for a reason.
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| regarding the second point - is a mental patient considered to be dimension travelling? esspecially one who has a vacant unresponsive stare? how about one that got hit by a car? is he hallucinating anything undemented and damaged. Is someone who has taken a drug to be excused with how other people react when their brain is damaged or working incorrectly? |
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I don't know, which patients/drug takers are you talking about in particular? What are their names and backgrounds? What are they experiencing?
When will you learn that generalisations are not helpful?
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| I think its harder to prove your case. I think consciousness is a very fragile thing, not something reaching into another plane of existence by default. Its just a tiny flame based on a human candle, not a consciousness light from another universe.
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And you, sir, completely missed most of the points I was making.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 06:06
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Someone tell me if the 23 pages of this thread are worth reading? I feel my considered post of 'No, I make fuck all' would fall on deaf ears presently!
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 11:20
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cytopia - the real mind fuck is that your consciousness is just based on chemical interactions, thats it, so is love etc.
All the things like creativity and initiative do not need the positing of supernatural entities to explain.
Its like creating the concept of god to explain Y the sky is blue. Unnecessary, wasteful and very misleading. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 11:37
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colin - Proof? not all opinions are equal, some are actually thought out, informed and self consistent, unlike others which are based on pure wishful thinking.
Consider that I have broken out of the ageold tradition of our cultures brainwashing. Wouldnt that be entirely consistent with everything Ive said, and explain your position simply and flawlessly?
Not being able to define a concept is just an excuse. But its a double edged sword, because making your position nebulous makes it impossible to assault, simultaneously makes it useless as a theory of understanding since it doesn't apply to anything specifically or at all.
love? is a sensation we feel that makes us irrational and very likely to reproduce. i.e. highly useful property. Consider that if we had a superior way of reproducing without love, then we would have never bothered with evolving it. Its only human beings that have a need to define it as special when all it does is makes us reproduce and feel really horny, and mushy too. My gf understands very well that her emotions although very palpable are just chemical reactions, and she has been an atheist for far longer than I.
the patient generalisation was only meant to show that a crippled brain has less functionality than a normally working brain. i.e. less consciousness, basic functionality, no language or higher functions etc, since those take concerted correctly functioning effort to produce.
Your case? why dont you spell out exactly what your case is? So I cant misunderstand it. I detest hints. |
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diskonekt
Fat Data
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1112
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 14:22
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*bump*
Equipment and music creation forum is not the same if this thread is not on top - right below all the stickies 
Peace, Love, Death metal |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
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329
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 19:51
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On 2008-07-08 11:20, bukboy wrote:
cytopia - the real mind fuck is that your consciousness is just based on chemical interactions, thats it, so is love etc.
All the things like creativity and initiative do not need the positing of supernatural entities to explain.
Its like creating the concept of god to explain Y the sky is blue. Unnecessary, wasteful and very misleading.
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I am not going to spend more energy and time on this.
Goodluck with everything.
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