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out of curiousity, How many of you guys make a good living with music alone?
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
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1448
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 21:02
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On 2008-07-04 10:44, klippel wrote:
i think the limited understanding of how things work and the finiteness of our possibilities drive a deep demand in humans for something "devine" to be there..
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It could just be the result of an evolved survival instinct: If you hear a noise in the dark, your immediate tendency is to think "Who's there?" not "What's there?". The same goes for animals. If a guard dog hears a noise in the dark, it will become alert and maybe start growling or barking as though there is an intruder.
This makes sense for survival. If the noise is just something falling to the ground, there is little risk. You can assume anything you want because in the end, you are not in danger. If the noise is someone coming to get you, you better make the right assumption that indeed someone is coming to get you or you could die. The cost of a false negative is very high.
The cost for making the wrong assumption if there is no one there (false positive) is very low. Just a bit of a fright and life goes on... Even if you get it wrong the vast majority of times, from a survival point of view, it is best to have all those false positives to make sure you catch the real threat when it occurs.
So personification of the unknown seems to be a good survival strategy.
UnderTow |
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klippel
Stereofeld
Started Topics :
91
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1153
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 21:55
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@undertow
first a +1 for your take on spirituality. it comes very close to mine... notting much more spiritual than a walk in a beautiful forest.. what else do you need to understand quite a few things about life
@yourlastpost
in the end we argue in the same direction. what opens questions for us will be explained. then we can live on with the explanation. i guess an "unknwon task" in our software makes us feel very uncomfortable.. |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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61
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329
Posted : Jul 5, 2008 11:07
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On 2008-07-04 10:49, bukboy wrote:
because flakey hippies are vermin like commies. They come out whenever you're not watching. They're the standard type I have to deal with everywhere. to me theyre lower than and less informed than scum.
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What's that all about? For a smart guy who says interesting things you discredit yourself with aggressive statements man.
It's your choice to be here.
I find your statement insulting and ignorant, really.
You mix some valid points with lots of assumptions that don't hold. Be careful with that.
 Cytopia.org
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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329
Posted : Jul 5, 2008 11:48
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Regarding Consciousness
I studied Psychology for 5 years, including quite some theory on the nature of consciousness. I also had really profound experiences on psychedelics about 10 years ago that changed my life forever. I also have been meditating and contemplating a modern teaching of enlightenment with a group of people.
I would not say I know the truth, but I am interested in it. What the nature of reality is, is the oldest most natural question of humanity, and disagreements on it can get ugly. My input none the less:
Most scientists these days are materialists, they believe all that exists is the physical, in the context of consciousness, most neuroscientists believe it is a by-product of our very evolved brains. Our brains have 100 billion cells that each have between 1000's - 1 million connections to the neighboring cells, giving huge number of possible connections that develop over time.
The human brain is argued to be the most complex creation of evolution on earth. Our interaction with nature stimulated development of the brain, and we created the modern world using our evolved super brain. Mystical experiences, presence of GOD and all could be reduced to chemical reactions in the brain, its the current scientific paradigm's way of looking at it empirically, i.e. nothing exists without proof. Richard Dawkins style.
Despite this so many people experience consciousness that is profound, and feel physically connected with people and the universe. Intuition exists, deep intimacy beyond thought where you really share something beyond thoughts.
What is that which connects us beyond our thoughts?
People report out of body experiences, becoming one with everything, transcendence of the separate self sense.
Can we prove any of this? No. In Science we call them "just so stories" and they are not valid arguments.
The history of Science shows that in the past we never got it right, old theories that were accepted as the truth, turn out to be wrong, or just part of a bigger perspective that we discover later. Our theories are like maps of reality based on what we can measure, hence we upgrade them as we go along. This is the development of Science. We work based on what we can prove so far, and that certainly is the safe way to go when dealing with material things, and doing heart operations etc 
The way we look at reality, develops over time as science develops and is integrated socially culturally into our way of thinking. It is our perception and what we think we know, its part of the truth but not the whole thing.
Experientially, consciousness is this sense of not knowing but really wanting to know. This interest itself is a creative impulse and a primary part of who we are.
It is possible to experience states of timeless pure consciousness, through meditation or other practices; sometimes it can happen on drugs also. Its profound every time. Some people will know what I mean. Whether than is produced by our brains, or it is accessing a field of consciousness. GOD or whatever is a matter of opinion to some extent. Learn from your own experience.
Pre modern enlightenment teachings taught people to attain and obide to that state of peace, not wanting, and bliss found in meditation and other spiritual practice. More modern teachings emphasize that experience both that freedom the unmanifest timelessness is not enough, we must bring it into the world by participating in life, being active, creating the world consciously (so that the ignorant people do not destroy it).
There are states of consciousness, from higher to lower. Higher states can be attained through practice and they sometimes happen in drug experiences. Higher potentials are created in these experience, often our sense of conscience is awakened and we care more, it has to do more with caring than an intellectual understanding, its like we discover a deeper part of ourselves than we were previously aware of, and people can experience this in groups in a collective field of consciousness, which used to happen at good Goa parties  especially the morning sun rise something seemed to happen, and then there were other people that didn't seem to be able to experience that same impulse.... What to do...
Amen Cytopia.org
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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61
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329
Posted : Jul 5, 2008 12:22
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On 2008-07-04 14:15, bukboy wrote:
its the same kind of thing. religion and personal subjective sensations of spirituality.
religion = bullshit but "christianity is the truth so go donate to the pastor"
spirituality = bullshit but "you need to repattern your brain waves to dolphin specifications for a small fee" or "you need to buy crystals and believe that when u buy acid u experience super human consciousness and go to the 6th dimension"
I hate the originators of this crap. I feel only pity for the poor idiots who entertain it. And there are a mass of them on this forum.
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You really are shallow.
Much of the religious practice has been corrupt, but not all of it. Some people authentically believe in something higher, what matters is that people be true to what they really believe.
Spirituality is not the same as religion btw. and that also can be authentic, despite the new age mushy version which you aggressively assume encompasses the whole thing.
Cytopia.org
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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Posted : Jul 5, 2008 13:37
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On 2008-07-04 19:19, bukboy wrote:
As I understand it conventional spirituality is necessarily tied in with the concept of afterlife.
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Nope, its not.
There are different spiritual groups that do not act on the assumption of afterlife.
In my experience people do think about what happens after death and if any part of me existed before birth, but these are natural questions.
Ken wilber for example writes on philosophy, religion, spirituality and science, but there is no assumption about afterlife, just in an intense interest in life itself.
Cytopia.org
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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Posted : Jul 5, 2008 13:48
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On 2008-07-04 04:21, Colin OOOD wrote:
Don't be too quick to dismiss the idea that awareness may arise as a function of the combined operation of every part of the brain. Function localisation is also hazy and not quite as tightly defined as you say; people have had portions of their brains removed yet retained (or regained) the associated function.
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Brains show incredible plasticity. Human brain is Modular, like your Nord A specific kind of Neuron can be removed and placed with other types of neurons, it will then connect and morph into the other kind of neuron adopting the same function. Brain injuries heal because other parts of the brain change to take over that function.
Cytopia.org
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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Posted : Jul 5, 2008 14:12
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On 2008-07-04 10:25, bukboy wrote:
Research will continue and your view will constantly shrink as more evidence points to that consciousness is a completely physical construct. Just as religion and spiritual shit is progressively de-FUCKING-stroyed by intelligent questioning people.
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I disagree, I have read some research that supports some spiritual ideas, such as consciousness not being limited to our brains. I believe some experiments show that intension physically affected objects like from a distance.
Your ideas on spirituality and religion are quite primitive.
Not all spiritual people deny science, and I know many scientists who consider their quest to understand and further develop the collective understanding of life, a spiritual quest (without the necessity of believing in afterlife
Cytopia.org
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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Posted : Jul 5, 2008 14:20
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On 2008-07-04 12:17, bukboy wrote:
Why am I so against it? because a lot of people are being forced to believe this shit because of all the mystic posers around who pretend to have special communion with god or the 10th dimension. They use this to scam people for money and political power. Thats ALL IT IS.
religion and spirituality are a plague on mankind keeping people from developing their critical ability and making something of themselves, But not only this generation is affected, but the next ad infinitum. This shit must be stopped.
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Again, your ideas on what spirituality and religion are is uninformed. There really are authentic people who are interested in nature of life, but there are also corrupt people who use authentic ideas to manipulate people.
That doesn't mean everyone falls into the later group, or " that's all it is".
A an intelligent "questioning" person should know better ..
Cytopia.org
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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803
Posted : Jul 6, 2008 08:15
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Cytopia - nothing weird or unexplainable has ever happened to me. show me one conclusive example and I will thank you. No-one wants make believe to be real more than me. Truly, my life would be complete, knowing that I was not completely replaceable and insignificant in the universe.
Your long post was fine until you started asserting unsubstantiated opinions. Saying that science has been wrong in the past, does not allow you to come to conclusions that fairytales could be true.
My shallowness is a product of my triumphant cynicism, please prove me wrong, because my side doesn't have any vested interests in believing made up shit, and has far more hard evidence than yours. |
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mk47
Inactive User
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118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Jul 6, 2008 10:33
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im with buckboy .. too much hype surrounding what is essentially just a drugs party
btw hasn't this has gone way offtopic ? .. but keep going 
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Jul 6, 2008 11:37
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This is only relevant in so much that almost everyone here is saying that making money is less important than spiritual superiority. People that have "enlightenment" are "better" than people who have money. Thats what we're dealing with right now.
Basically the old mystic's claim to authority line. (after which the next line is usually - give me some of your money coz being mystical is important and hard, so obviously I cant hold down a job at the same time.) |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Jul 6, 2008 15:04
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On 2008-07-06 11:37, bukboy wrote:
This is only relevant in so much that almost everyone here is saying that making money is less important than spiritual superiority. People that have "enlightenment" are "better" than people who have money. Thats what we're dealing with right now.
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False dichotomy. It doesn't have to be either/or. You can have money and still be enlightened.
All through this discussion you seem to be arguing against something that none of us (at least few of us) believe.
UnderTow |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Jul 6, 2008 18:10
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Undertow - So ur saying spirituality is irrelevant to money? I say money (production) runs the world and everyone says that spirit is a bigger part of it. Isnt that a good summary? |
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other_reality
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
43
Posts :
365
Posted : Jul 6, 2008 19:00
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I've read most of the last pages in this thread, and I couldn't imagine to have read the stuff i've read when I clicked on the topic in the first place !!!
Music itself, as I see it and have lived it through my life and own experiences, is somehow "divine". Not in a religious way necessarily, but it certainly has the ability to make you feel you're inside another dimension, full of vivid imaginary places. This "portal" access can be shared by many many people, particularly at a party, and whereas there may be different "locations" for each individual to visit, the actual "sharing" makes it a great paradigm of peace and unity.
Temporary utopia, a glimpse of paradise.
I could never describe all this past experience i've had only as a "drug-party" as mk47 mentioned. This would be a disgrace from my part, an offending, insulting description to something so good and beneficial to my spirit.
There have been times, that I just wouldn't communicate with the rest at a party, and temporarily got out of "sync", and started accusing myself for being somewhere I didn't belong, but who hasn't ? It is so difficult to get rid of your everyday insecurities, inhibitions and stereotypes. Inner strength, and belief in your spirit, can purify yourself in a way that all those inhibitions step aside when they should. At a party for example !
Spirituality isn't bullshit bukboy ! And it hasn't got a label beneath it either. It isn't about Christianity or Buddhism or Muslims. It is about you, your spirit, yourself. About how you communicate with the rest of beings, your surroundings and your planet. And above all, how you communicate with your inner self.
Todays western life has its way with "suppressing" spirituality, for productivity reasons. Money ruling the earth is ofcourse undeniable, but this shouldn't mean we should abandon everything else ! Balance is needed in order to survive in a healthy manner.
I dont like money gatherers, as I don't like"new-age-pseudo prophets". I like balance, creativity and experimentation. Logic and data cross-verification, is a way to achieve knowledge that helps stabilizing your brain. Music, partying and socializing, is another tool to develop your spirit. Wise use of both, I think creates a healthy modern human being.
Bring yourselves into the light
www.youtube.com/otherreality |
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