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out of curiousity, How many of you guys make a good living with music alone?
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klippel
Stereofeld
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
1153
Posted : Jul 3, 2008 10:45
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@upavas.. your absolutely right.. what you describe is the essence of zen buddhism..
look (at yourself or whatever)longe enough with your mind focussed and clear on the point and you will see.. without anybody telling you anything what to see or not..
nothing "holy" involved.. very simple and clear, just you and yeah what ?
the feeling you get will make up your mind concerning life for sure...
nevertheless, given that, the hardest thing to learn IS focussing on one thing for a longer time period... beeing right here and now... sound easy is sooo hard...
so a first try might not be able to convince someone.. and even harder if the person seems to be happy without seeing beyond..
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Jul 3, 2008 11:37
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On 2008-07-02 13:57, bukboy wrote:
Im having difficulty finding a shroom leader here in durbs 
However, Im not going for the "noone is right", hippy, "everyone feel warm and fuzzy coz we're all fucking special in the global consciousness" cop out.
"will to power"
Im only endorsing this concept because evolution has "reckoned" that it works, pretty well. I mean who am I to judge 500 million years of evolution. Ive actually never looked at it from any other point of view. i.e. no adler roots.
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Hi Bukboy
just to throw this thought at you.. you don't have to take the cop-out, because any cop-out the precludes thought is lame. however, you dont have to take the anti-cop out too, because that is kind of the same, just the other side of the coin. "strive for the middle path" as evolution proves this to be the most durable concept. extreme variances never survive in an open ecosystem, and I also truly believe moderation in any and all things is the key to life as well as a happy existence. i.e. work hard but also play hard!
evolution has also provided us many extinctions, so lets not forget about that either
p.s. shrooms can be found anywhere there are lots of cows. if there are cows, then it is just a matter of flipping over cowpies and there they are. with dealers unfortunately it is a supply and demand issue... but you can get kits on the internet, and they are very easy to grow. depending on your locality, there may even be legal loopholes allowing the sale/transport of spores or even shrooms themselves. up until 2002 in japan we enjoyed such a system and you could regularly buy many varieties of mushrooms and peyote at any headshop.
>Undertow
I'm India right now for training, so I didn't have time to answer your post fully the first time. rereading it now this came to mind.
1) yes we ARE animals, and that is why we should not separate ourselves from nature and the animal kingdom. i.e. respect the environment
2) the caveat: we are capable of rational thought which puts a twist on that. we can attach a value decision and judgement to an action, which does make us a little special and different than the other animals. we can still act savagely though
3) nature is very suble but has been characterized as being "fractal" in tendencies and eminating patterns (logic?). systems in natural are show to have a be highly ordered, and evolution shows us that there is a progression of this order over time
however you are right there is no scientific evidence of nature having an intelligence per se, yet. nonetheless there is a growing consensus among physicists involved in Grand Theory and Quantum Physics (A Brief History of Time, Hawkins) that there is so much coincidental order in the universe that it is highly suggestive of a greater power (God?)
>Upavas
defintely part of the middle path. 30 minutes is a long time for me though... baby steps may be required
****
for the record, although we all have different viewpoints, and we may get on eachothers cases from time to time, I have to say that I really enjoy talking with all of you because it is through this kind of interaction where we all have to come out of our safe havens (i.e. not preaching to the choir) and hone ourselves. I think I have come to better articulate and understand some of my own vewpoints, as well as challenging myself to understand others.
peace!  Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 3, 2008 12:23
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Upavas - I respect your statement, now consider that in my view, your mystic experience is all generated in the mind, i.e. its completely subjective, i.e. not objective.
A long time ago, I had a very wonky experience where I left my body backwards during a meditation as a drop of black oil. My visual perspective zoomed out towards infinity, then my heart started pounding and I was pulled back and became stuck in my body again. But as suggestive as that sounds, It was all generated by my brain, because the brain does some amazing shit when u put it into strange states. And I am rational enough to come to that conclusion and not be swallowed up by the sensationalist crap going around from everyones spiritual niche beliefs, and not come to the stupid conclusion that I actually went to other dimensions, so No dude I cannot accept your answer because the evidence is tainted with subjectivity. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jul 3, 2008 14:48
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The best conclusion that one can take from psychedelics is that you can not trust your brain.
UnderTow |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jul 3, 2008 15:03
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On 2008-07-01 22:07, the daleks wrote:
Hi Undertow
Sorry, i just reread that now, and realized it may have sounded kind of imposing. And didnt mean to make it sound like I was taking a jab at you or scolding.. just wanted to open up the idea to you - intelligences at different vibrations, so to speak. Everything else you have said I felt deep harmony with and should have said that as well
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I didn't see it as an attack or imposing at all. I just didn't fully agree with the points.
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1) yes we ARE animals, and that is why we should not separate ourselves from nature and the animal kingdom. i.e. respect the environment
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Absolutely!
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2) the caveat: we are capable of rational thought which puts a twist on that. we can attach a value decision and judgement to an action, which does make us a little special and different than the other animals. we can still act savagely though
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Agreed again. That is exactly my point. The animalistic behaviour isn't what makes us humans. It is the rest.
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3) nature is very suble but has been characterized as being "fractal" in tendencies and eminating patterns (logic?). systems in natural are show to have a be highly ordered, and evolution shows us that there is a progression of this order over time
however you are right there is no scientific evidence of nature having an intelligence per se, yet. nonetheless there is a growing consensus among physicists involved in Grand Theory and Quantum Physics (A Brief History of Time, Hawkins) that there is so much coincidental order in the universe that it is highly suggestive of a greater power (God?)
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Well you mention fractals in the first paragraph. Very simple mathematical formulae can produce infinitely complex (and beautiful) patterns that still have order in them. I think that is how nature works. Simple laws of physics produce extremely (infinitely) complex emergent properties that have inherent order.
I really do not think it is in any way necessary to involve magic (God) to explain things. We can just accept that we do not understand everything.
On the contrary, "greater power" or "God" or whatever is not an explanation of anything. To me it is an admission of defeat while not actually admitting it. I much prefer admitting that I have no clue where the universe comes from.
UnderTow |
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
431
Posted : Jul 3, 2008 16:30
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On 2008-07-03 15:03, UnderTow wrote:
Well you mention fractals in the first paragraph. Very simple mathematical formulae can produce infinitely complex (and beautiful) patterns that still have order in them. I think that is how nature works. Simple laws of physics produce extremely (infinitely) complex emergent properties that have inherent order.
I really do not think it is in any way necessary to involve magic (God) to explain things. We can just accept that we do not understand everything.
On the contrary, "greater power" or "God" or whatever is not an explanation of anything. To me it is an admission of defeat while not actually admitting it. I much prefer admitting that I have no clue where the universe comes from.
UnderTow
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You are saying that very simple mathematical formulas and than u are saying that there is nothing magical about it.. But isnt someone created that formula for generating fractals? That means that every of those "simple" rules of nature must be set by someone.. If there are laws than there is law giver..
http://www.myspace.com/djacidkills
http://soundcloud.com/acidkills/dropbox |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jul 3, 2008 20:12
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On 2008-07-03 16:30, acidkills wrote:
You are saying that very simple mathematical formulas and than u are saying that there is nothing magical about it.. But isnt someone created that formula for generating fractals?
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The fractals are just an example of a simple rule that creates infinitely complex yet ordered patterns. I am not suggesting that our universe is a run-away fractint process running on some alien's super computer. 
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That means that every of those "simple" rules of nature must be set by someone.. If there are laws than there is law giver..
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No. We call them laws because as humans we are stuck with our limited vocabulary and concepts but these laws are nothing like human laws. This is basicly the old maths conundrum: Do numbers exist in a vacuum and mathematicians just discovered them or were numbers and their concepts created by humans? Does a tree falling...
I think our biological make-up, refined to survive in the world we live in, hampers our ability to view things on the grander scale.
We are, for example, not good at imagining things on the light-year scale because we have, evolutionarily speaking, never had any need to think in that way. It does not help our physical survival (yet).
IMO laws of nature do not imply a law giver. They just are. I would say that needing to find a law-giver is an inability to let go of the (limited) human perspective.
UnderTow |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Jul 3, 2008 23:39
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 01:25
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On 2008-07-03 12:23, bukboy wrote:
Upavas - I respect your statement, now consider that in my view, your mystic experience is all generated in the mind, i.e. its completely subjective, i.e. not objective.
A long time ago, I had a very wonky experience where I left my body backwards during a meditation as a drop of black oil. My visual perspective zoomed out towards infinity, then my heart started pounding and I was pulled back and became stuck in my body again. But as suggestive as that sounds, It was all generated by my brain, because the brain does some amazing shit when u put it into strange states. And I am rational enough to come to that conclusion and not be swallowed up by the sensationalist crap going around from everyones spiritual niche beliefs, and not come to the stupid conclusion that I actually went to other dimensions, so No dude I cannot accept your answer because the evidence is tainted with subjectivity.
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Bukboy, there is no center in the brain for awareness. At least this is what science came up with so far. They pretty much have mapped out the different parts of the brain , it's functions and processes and what part of us they adhere to. As far as awareness is concerned, there is no function for that in the human brain. So since there is no center of awareness and no coherent brainpart for awareness it is safe to say that awareness does not come from the mind, meaning it is something else.
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 02:25
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On 2008-07-04 01:25, Upavas wrote:
Bukboy, there is no center in the brain for awareness. At least this is what science came up with so far. They pretty much have mapped out the different parts of the brain , it's functions and processes and what part of us they adhere to. As far as awareness is concerned, there is no function for that in the human brain. So since there is no center of awareness and no coherent brainpart for awareness it is safe to say that awareness does not come from the mind, meaning it is something else.
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Knock knock. Where do you hide the little man pulling the strings?
UnderTow |
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
431
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 02:41
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[quote]
On 2008-07-03 20:12, UnderTow wrote:
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The fractals are just an example of a simple rule that creates infinitely complex yet ordered patterns. I am not suggesting that our universe is a run-away fractint process running on some alien's super computer.
No. We call them laws because as humans we are stuck with our limited vocabulary and concepts but these laws are nothing like human laws. This is basicly the old maths conundrum: Do numbers exist in a vacuum and mathematicians just discovered them or were numbers and their concepts created by humans? Does a tree falling...
I think our biological make-up, refined to survive in the world we live in, hampers our ability to view things on the grander scale.
We are, for example, not good at imagining things on the light-year scale because we have, evolutionarily speaking, never had any need to think in that way. It does not help our physical survival (yet).
IMO laws of nature do not imply a law giver. They just are. I would say that needing to find a law-giver is an inability to let go of the (limited) human perspective.
UnderTow
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Yeah humans are limited but its obvious that if u gonna build a house u need architects and do some calculations, include some intelligence, u cant build a house by simply blowing bricks with C4.. They want fall down and create a house.. so same goes for this universe, u cant just create a boom and make it comfortable for building houses in it..
http://www.myspace.com/djacidkills
http://soundcloud.com/acidkills/dropbox |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 03:27
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On 2008-07-04 02:25, UnderTow wrote:
Knock knock. Where do you hide the little man pulling the strings?
UnderTow
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I have a better question. Who is pulling the strings? Your mind or you?
Until we are able to stop the mind machine from spitting out it's constant gibberish, I would say the mind is.
Sounds insane huh?
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 04:21
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On 2008-07-04 01:25, Upavas wrote:
Bukboy, there is no center in the brain for awareness. At least this is what science came up with so far. They pretty much have mapped out the different parts of the brain , it's functions and processes and what part of us they adhere to. As far as awareness is concerned, there is no function for that in the human brain. So since there is no center of awareness and no coherent brainpart for awareness it is safe to say that awareness does not come from the mind, meaning it is something else.
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Don't be too quick to dismiss the idea that awareness may arise as a function of the combined operation of every part of the brain. Function localisation is also hazy and not quite as tightly defined as you say; people have had portions of their brains removed yet retained (or regained) the associated function.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 09:01
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Did they have that part of the brain removed on both sides Colin?
It is true that some people had parts of their brains removed and still retained part of it's functions. To my knowledge never fully (I may be wrong there). Since there is a male and female side to the brain this function still might have resided on the other brain half (question)?
Another interesting idea is that humans rarely ever use more than a small fraction of the entire potential of their brain. I wonder how that part has to do with evolution?
And with awareness?
Maybe I should have put a stronger emphasis when I mentioned that science SO FAR has not yet come up with a center of awareness. Meaning you definitely have a point there.
The other thing is that so far western science has not come to terms with awareness. It is still based on cogito ergo sum, (I think therefor I am). Since we never have 100% control (mostly 0%) hehehe of what is being thought of in our minds I would hardly call awareness part of the mind...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 4, 2008 10:25
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Upavas - The standard creationist argument is "we dont understand it so therefore god made it" because they have a vested interest in not understanding. (To their unconscious embarrassment.)
You sound identical.
Research will continue and your view will constantly shrink as more evidence points to that consciousness is a completely physical construct. Just as religion and spiritual shit is progressively de-FUCKING-stroyed by intelligent questioning people.
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