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out of curiousity, How many of you guys make a good living with music alone?
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Jun 28, 2008 16:03
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On 2008-06-28 00:27, bukboy wrote:
Do we not need to evolve anymore at some point?
And I dont mean only biological evolution since our societies now evolve using memes for superiority, and the stronger always trump. Technology of a society is also a type of meme.
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We do not _need_ to do anything. That would imply some inherent purpose to life which I don't believe exists.
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I think the only way that you could have a peaceful stable enlightened society is if you destroyed that which makes us human. i.e. our individuality, our need for diversification, our will to survive at any odds. Our very basic need to compete which is so good at making us survive.
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I don't believe so. I think that which makes us human is exactly that which will give us an enlightened society. I believe that rational thought and compassion is what differentiates us from animals. Not our material achievements.
I believe that the dictators and opportunists of the world are (borderline) sociopaths and they represent the less commendable aspects of humanity and are scientifically considered aberrations rather than the norm.
I believe that these sociopaths pray on the more animalistic aspects of the masses to wield their powers. They appeal to basic instincts of fear of others and greed.
I believe that as a species we can do better than that.
Also, I don't believe that anything is holy. If we need to adapt and change as a species to be able to survive on the long term (like not destroying our own planet) then that is what has to happen. No regrets.
Even if the above is all wrong and we find out that what makes us humans is indeed all the "negative" aspects we have been discussing, then it is time for a new and better species.
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And how would it be possible for evolution to occur without meaningful losers or winners? How could the strong winners that are the next generation possibly carry on if the weak losers didnt get removed from the population?
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The "weak losers" haven't been removed from the population for hundreds of millennia. Ever since humans (and possibly our ancestors before we were truly human) have cared for their weak, the more basic rules of animal evolution have not entirely applied, yet societies keep on moving forward.
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Any consensus of rights will make humanity weak, and in that opportunity again the strong will flourish.
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I don't follow you here. What do you mean?
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The enlightened ideals of the world catch so much attention in the news because they capture the lazy public's imagination.
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Says who? Actually, violence and death catches people's attention much faster. Good deeds are only rarely reported about compared to bad deeds. I would say that the opposite is true, that more effort is needed to present and explain enlightened views to capture people's imagination especially lazy people's imagination.
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It doesnt occur to anyone that the whole purpose of their life will be meaningless without struggle, since that is all we've evolved to do.
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Struggle might give one a sense of achievement but that is not the same as meaning. Evolution doesn't give us purpose it just is. IMO there is no inherent purpose to life. The only meaning life can have is the meaning you yourself choose to give it.
UnderTow |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jun 28, 2008 23:03
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According to your theory Mozart was a weak loser. He was poor, sick, died way too young, ah yes, he happened to have written some of the greatest music in the history of human evolution. Since he was on the bottom end of society, he cannot be anything else but a weak loser. Never mind all his work that is timeless and definitely a part of human evolution.
This example is better for someone with your limited world vision than all the enlightened peaks of humanity I have mentioned earlier.
As far as evolution not being a theory is concerned, your statement of that being just false is just false.
And it is not even backed up properly.
why don't you go here and read again...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
It states in bold letters that a fact, in science, is an observation. A theory, in science, is an explanation of the observations. OBSERVATIONS of things, not the things themselves!!! Both refer to science, you may also call science the study of things but not the things themselves...
 Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jun 29, 2008 00:51
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upavas - Nothing personal but Ive totally lost the plot on what ur trying to say. I really think we're talking past each other. I have no idea what you mean, I dont even know how its relevant to what I said. I am managing to have a conversation with undertow and he mostly gets what Im trying to say and vice versa, but somehow I dont get you. I assume you're interpreting what I said and returning it back to me, I however dont know which part it relates to. Can you quote me?
undertow - What I meant with the 1st part was that if you want to claim a utopian society with no conflict can exist then what would it mean for evolution. Would it no longer exist? What Im getting at is that a society like that would be incapable of adaptation to new threats, because they would no longer be able to evolve. And Undertow, I do respect your responses, But I cant really argue with opinions.
Belief is what disclaims many of your responses, but being an atheist, belief to me is nothing more than stating that a position is a plausible and well argued one, hence that position can be articulated in detail, Not so? So instead you should just state the argument.
I mean stating a belief is not sufficient evidence to discount an argument is it?
I am not promulgating beliefs myself , I am stating arguments, which gather evidence by withstanding criticism.
Just replying that you believe Im wrong, we might as well be spending our time doing something fun, meanwhile my position still stands and I feel no less convinced.
Is it basically the case that I will have to prove what I said beyond a doubt before anyone will even consider my position on its merits? Its me against the world until I incontrovertibly prove ever last wishful belief wrong?
Lets just discuss the question "is evolution NECESSARY for a society to exist and thrive" |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jun 29, 2008 02:58
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Bukboy,
It is clear to me that you do not understand what I am saying to you. You said that evolution was based on will to power, I said otherwise.
If your earlier statements were clear to yourself you wou7ld not have lost me.
I merely reply to your statements from your earlier posts.
You asked me to prove my vision of evolution logically, I have explained to you in clear terms including some statements from Wikipedia (which by no means means I assume Wikipedia to be always right...) that since evolution is not logical it cannot be logically explained. No theory of evolution has ever been proven to be right.
Remember, they call it Charles Darwins THEORY of evolution, not Darwins evolution!!!
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jun 29, 2008 10:42
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Upavas - it is impossible to prove any theory true, it is only possible to confirm or falsify a theory.
And considering that evolution has no evidence of being false, while having a host of confirming evidence, We can reason that evolution is practically true, enough so to base predictions on it, and expect observations to confirm the predictions.
I still dont understand what ur trying to say with the evolution is not logical bit.
Evolution is a theory that is logically stated, i.e. if you follow its line of argumentation and cannot falsify any steps then the conclusion must be true. Why do you not accept this? |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Jun 29, 2008 10:46
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evo·lu·tion
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Latin evolution-, evolutio unrolling, from evolvere
Date:
1622
1: one of a set of prescribed movements
2 a: a process of change in a certain direction : unfolding b: the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : emission c (1): a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : growth (2): a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance d: something evolved
3: the process of working out or developing
4 a: the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species) : phylogeny b: a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations; also : the process described by this theory
5: the extraction of a mathematical root
6: a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena
My take on it:
Evolution is a fancy word for development. Darwinian evolution may be one of the mechanisms through which life has evolved, but is not the only form of evolution.
In modernity and post modernity we do not kill off the weaker of the human beings, they still procreate and pass on their genes to the next generation.
There is however, still development of consciousness, which continues not at the biological level but at a social, cultural and level. There may also be biological evolution but it happens in deep vast amounts of time, we are not likely to notice over a few generations.
In cultural evolution, each generation develops a set of value systems which are passed onto the next generation which takes it from there. In this way there are memes of development very well described by Clara Graves theory of Spiral Dynamics (really helps to describe cultural development and its backed up by scientific data over many years)
Friction is still needed for evolution to take place, it happens within each of us as a result of the many conflicting impulses we experience, we choose which impulse is most suitable either for ourselves, or for the whole (yes altruism does exist).
This also happens on a collective level as we argue about what the true nature of evolution is, there is development within us and more importantly between us.
Its sometimes referred to as creative friction; a social cultural process where new ideas are created by communicating ideas. Our collective consciousness develops through interaction and it need not always be holding hands and singing kum-ba-ja-; but we certainly do not need to physically kill the others for development to take place.
Utopia need not imply no conflict, but it might mean conflict manifest in a much more sophisticated and creative way, so that it can stimulate further development.
Development means change over time from more simple to more complex forms, from ignorance to wisdom and insight. There is a creative principle that drives the universe and all of nature to develop, and this impulse is available to all of us, in the form of creativity and consciousness.
Cytopia.org
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jun 29, 2008 12:20
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On 2008-06-29 10:42, bukboy wrote:
Upavas - it is impossible to prove any theory true, it is only possible to confirm or falsify a theory.
And considering that evolution has no evidence of being false, while having a host of confirming evidence, We can reason that evolution is practically true, enough so to base predictions on it, and expect observations to confirm the predictions.
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Then why did you ask me to prove my idea of evolution with Logic?
You are reasoning on evidence, not on fact meaning it may not be true. A certain part of a prediction of development may be expected and confirmed, but that does not mean that it is necessarily true in the whole of things.
We cannot know about the phenomenon of life logically because life in itself is not logical!!!
No life means no evolution. Life is intrinsic to evolution. All theories without that factor (life) are never following all the steps, there is always one step (life) missing, therefor we cannot NOT falsify any steps. Whoops, logic is out the window. Despite Wikipedias statement of what evolution is!
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jun 30, 2008 14:53
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Cytopia. Excellent answer.
Im still not convinced though. You see I work in an environment where people do not advance until they consciously choose to make a decision to develop themselves, and 90% of the people never come to this conclusion. They prefer to work the least amount possible for the pay they get, never realising that it is their own lack of initiative which will keep them in a crappy place all their lives.
This is typical human behaviour up close and personal, not the utopian societies where no-one seems to have any troubles by default. It takes hard work and dedication on a life time scale to make yourself into something thats not bottom of the barrel animal like. And these kind of people are necessary to make a strong society.
I dont see the transformation to utopian soft conflict if such a vast psychological difference exists between the people who are awake and those who arent.
However, if humanity became universally competent, then Il grudgingly accept the possibility that a peaceful, artistic, constantly developing society could work.
Until then Im going to assume that if people are lazy, and ignorant, then they are are basically stupid by their own choice, and should be treated as such.
Hence conflict from people like me at people who are leeching parasites.
Do people here at least sympathise with my view? |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Jun 30, 2008 17:36
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On 2008-06-30 14:53, bukboy wrote:
Cytopia. Excellent answer.
Im still not convinced though. You see I work in an environment where people do not advance until they consciously choose to make a decision to develop themselves, and 90% of the people never come to this conclusion. They prefer to work the least amount possible for the pay they get, never realising that it is their own lack of initiative which will keep them in a crappy place all their lives.
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You're making a few assumptions here. Not everyone is motivated by money in the way you are; not everyone considers the tradeoff between increased salary and decreased personal time to be one worth pursuing; you assume that people 'never realise' it's their own 'lack of initiative' which keeps them in a 'crappy place' when I'll bet you any amount of money that more people work to live (ie. find more satisfaction outside work) than live to work, as you seem to be promoting, and that they're happy with their 'crappy place' as it lets them survive whilst doing what they really want with their lives. It's a shame that the only advancement you can see seems to come from a work environment; there's so much more to life if only you'll let yourself see it.
I think it's also a very great shame that you insist on judging people by your own standards. You are not - none of us are - the arbiter of all that is right and wrong, and doing this will inevitably mean you'll find most of the rest of the world wanting, and is not a route to long-term happiness.
And you still haven't adequately answered my point at the top of Page 17. Don't be evasive. Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Jun 30, 2008 20:12
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On 2008-06-30 14:53, bukboy wrote:
Cytopia. Excellent answer.
Im still not convinced though. You see I work in an environment where people do not advance until they consciously choose to make a decision to develop themselves, and 90% of the people never come to this conclusion. They prefer to work the least amount possible for the pay they get, never realising that it is their own lack of initiative which will keep them in a crappy place all their lives.
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I think Choice is definately part of evolution, everyone has access to the field of consciousness that connects all of us and is the creative impulse of life itself, but we also have many lower impulses, our biological needs, our cultural and personal conditioning. Its up to each individual to transcend the lower to attain their own higher & deepest impulse to be the responsible trustworthy people that we are in our best moments already.
Having said that, best be careful dictating what other people's deepest impulse really is and what it means to be responsible. I also work in a big company and I have learned a lot really, but often I do feel the corporate enviornment is way too much about money and achievment.
It will not bring out the good parts of everyone, as you know there is much competition and managers see people as resources (and some employees are not dependable so you do have to look at them as both as people and as resources, what are they doing for the good of the team)
But its not for everyone, and interestingly the good people are doing it because they are creative and bringing something new into the world. They also happen to be the kinder people, which must mean something.
I also have many friends who just travel and do what ever it takes to avoid working, and its not pretty at times, they are lazy and not creating anything other than negative freedom for themselves, stoned 24/7 and uninterested in anything. I do not think this is real freedom because deep inside I think they want more than that, but that is their choice, they have to see it and stand for it, and not everyone is that extreme, I know some great musicians who live off making music and are really creative and inspire me deeply
I do think you can apply those (and more) catagories, responsible good person VS irresponsible asshole in many enviornments, I see both catagories at work and both within the group of more hip orientated people that I know.
So I would say, whatever we do, it should be an expression of our interest, of our creativity, love and care.
Amen.
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jun 30, 2008 21:21
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Jul 1, 2008 00:10
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On 2008-06-30 14:53, bukboy wrote:
I dont see the transformation to utopian soft conflict if such a vast psychological difference exists between the people who are awake and those who arent.
Hence conflict from people like me at people who are leeching parasites.
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I am not sure where we went from not needing physical conflict to evolve to soft utopian conflict. Evolution without violence does not mean soft mushy lets exchange opinions kind of thing.
Who exactly are the leeching parasites that you want to kill off to further promote the evolution of consciousness?
I think I missed something.
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 1, 2008 11:33
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Dudes Im a bit busy but Il try to trickle in comments throughout the day. Also Im a bit choked up cos some1 close died yesterday so my brain is not working, basically I feel goofed without any chemicals involved.
Colin - Its not a question of trade off of working slavishly for increased salary, but a deep existential state that we as humans are in.
In any aspect of life, in any endeavor, in any creative piece, in any job we have to throw ourself in all the way, with maximum concentration and intention, because that is the only way in which we will learn something from the experience, but more importantly because of overpopulation, only people like that are in demand, and given access to exploit new opportunities.
Production is a necessity for everyday life, and as we have more population and competition increases exponentially, it is a reality that we have to accept, not so much capitulate to grudgingly.
regarding your question - You have one promise from me, and that is to never be evasive or retiscent. I am always involved with goodwill and willingness to partake honestly in any discourse. The only reason I didnt answer your question is because it doesn't satisfy the criteria I had meant, (maybe not unambiguously enough)
As my gf summarized nicely, " Ubuntu eish, no electreeseetee", " Ubuntu eish, no road signs"
Cytopia - I actually consider big companies to be a marvel of evolution, and an abstraction of reality discarding the rosy glasses of default empathy. Deep down, a feature of reality that we like to bullshit ourselves is not important (our inequality in making value) is actually brought to the forefront becoz its true and is unavoidable. The gatekeepers have real issues to contend with like staying solvent, constant applications from competitive employees, vs excuses from lazy incompetent employees, to balance the equation of human needs vs resources.
This is the future... Its the next level of social evolution that integrates all the real issues of the human species, not the conman ones.
Personally I wont need to kill off anyone, capitalism will ensure the lazy dudes generally get a social demotion, and breed worse genes, eat worse food, get less education, deal with more theft and violence, whereas the opposite will be true for the creative, hardworking dudes. thats the beauty of capitalism, u get what u work for. A beautiful abstraction of the human condition and its limitations. |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Jul 1, 2008 12:03
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On 2008-06-27 11:15, Colin OOOD wrote:
Bukkakeboy, will you please stop redefining your terms mid-discussion.
In what way is labour not a "practically useful product that the indigenous culture here provides"?
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 Colin, your knowledge of japanese culture is deep ;-)
exactly yeah, I think that's really disrespectful to all the hard working people of the world, like my parents, your parents, and anyone else. basically, for one who disrespects others I find it hard to give respect. doesn't matter how good your kung-fu is if you are such a person. in that past i have made decisions not to support such artists on the basis of their attitude. Oasis is a good example of this type.
pretty much in reading this thread i think its safe to say that we all have our formulated opinions on the world and no amount of bantering is going to change some peoples minds. i guess i can live with that
some final comments:
>Undertow
be careful not too separate man from nature so much. this is the cause of many of our problems today. Conversely, I think nature does have an intelligence, although perhaps very subtle in its ways. Animals are not the bad things, perhaps more pure in a sense, because they have not bitten the apple. In this regard i think that it is better not to compare humans to animals, but rather humans to savages. animals never killed for pleasure nor do they horde items.
> bukboy
haven't you ever had that warm fuzy feeling? from what you say, it would seem not -maybe your world is an analytical rotating of gears and dog eat dog in the corporate world. I worked at Citibank for awhile and absolutely hated it. Now I work for a laid back software company, where there is a nice sense of community, and many co-workers are friends. so dont look at the company as the be-all end-all. very dangerous, almost like putting all your faith in one basket. then you go on to say a harmonious society people loose their individuality. thats an oxymoron if i ever saw one. individuality is much more at risk when your salary depends on it..
conversely i think you will find that lazy people are often more efficient, and creative. in my case, and the paradigm of IT, always choose the method that requires the least administrative effort. i am the first to admit that i am lazy. yet i think i have realized a degree of success
i think that your vision is incredibly clouded, and mark my words: your lack of vision will be your undoing....
to begin the healing, if you so choose (and trust me, it does begin with choice, more so than anything else), I would suggest that you take some magic mushrooms
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/ap_on_sc/sci_psychedelic_study
may there be peace for all Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jul 1, 2008 12:30
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Il take u up on the shroomie idea.
p.s. Colin was not being anti japanese. Thats the inspiration for my handle in less savoury circles. |
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