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Posted : Jun 21, 2010 15:04
carlins view is interesting.
good to know.
the planet wil heal itself and its not the planet thats gettin fuked its the people
we sure are fukin ourselves...it took us so long to realise this or wat?? !!!
Maine Coon
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Posted : Jun 21, 2010 20:14
Quote:
On 2010-06-21 15:01, Xolvexs wrote:
the amount thats spent in talking and raising awarness with those banners and advertising "go-green" "save eath", "dance naked for the planet festival" or what have you itself is causing another 50 thousand ton of garbage..
True, just like all the violence perpetrated in the name of peacekeeping. Ironic.
The thing is “green” became a new industry. Like dotcom in the 90s. A lot of it is nothing but advertisement hype, but it’s very handy in getting into your pocket. And if you don’t open your pocket to this new fashion – they will get into it by force anyway. They’ve been talking for years about building a wind mill farm off Lake Erie’s shore – all the while the city of Cleveland has been on a brink of bankruptcy for nearly 10 years. We are on the third mayor since this wind mill hoopla started – and all these years we pay the mayor and the councilmen out of our pockets to talk about a pie in the sky. And when they finally decide something – we’ll pay again, so they can give a nice contract to their buddies at some “Green Wind Mills Save the Earth, Inc” to build the stupid thing.
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if you want to clean up just clean it dont make so much whoo ha ha haa about it and apply the economies of scale model to the clean up effort..for its that same model that caused the problem now you want to use that same model to clean it up
I disagree. I mean, I agree about keeping it individual and not turning it into yet another fascist industry. But the more people clean up, the cleaner it will be, isn’t that right? You can tell your friend about the new light bulb (it does save on the electric bill) or about benefits of recycling – and let them decide for themselves.
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the whole hype and peer presssure is so lame and so fake and such childish gimmick- 5 stars for green building , yay, i changed all the bulbs in my office and i am certified green business now hooray i saved the planet-no i just spent $700 on GE bulbs
It’s all advertisement: for yourself, for GE and most of all – for the government. Because they care so much! Yeah, right...
mica
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Posted : Jun 23, 2010 22:16
I also do work for a printing company , i operate a huge solvent(pollutes like fuck) ink printer 20 feet long , but we also have the latest in green printing, an HP Latex printer that prints with environmentally friendly Latex based inks. We were approached by city hall officials to do a huge printing job to advertise some green awareness event here in Toronto. They asked us to quote the job done with the latex printer on certified paper and recyclable vinyl banner material. when we showed them the price they clinched and said: "you know what we'll just go with the cheaper solvent based stuff"
They also came to my house to replace the shower heads and tap heads to control the water usage or something and these things have no prussure they suck. I told them to fuck them selves and to go nock on Mr.Bernsteins multi million mansion and tell him to put less water in his 500,000 gallon swimming pool, I just want a decent shower in the country with most water in the world
I don't believe in global warming , its a big bullshit story,
Boulevard
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Posted : Jun 23, 2010 22:27
The people are FUCKED!!!!!
Mushrooms make you do crazy stuff. Look at Mario he jumps on animal heads and fights with dragons.
Basilisk
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Posted : Jun 24, 2010 08:00
If anyone has any doubts about the reality of anthropogenic climate change and global warming I would be happy to clear up your misconceptions. Some counterculturalists love to be contrary to anything mainstream... and since the environmental movement has had some success in pushing global warming and sustainability to the forefront of public discourse, suddenly there is an asinine backlash within counterculture against something that has traditionally been a core value. I'd like to see that end at some point.
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Posted : Jun 24, 2010 08:07
Quote:
On 2010-06-24 08:00, Basilisk wrote:
If anyone has any doubts about the reality of anthropogenic climate change and global warming I would be happy to clear up your misconceptions. Some counterculturalists love to be contrary to anything mainstream... and since the environmental movement has had some success in pushing global warming and sustainability to the forefront of public discourse, suddenly there is an asinine backlash within counterculture against something that has traditionally been a core value. I'd like to see that end at some point.
That worries me a lot, I mean even if climate change isnt of anthropogenic origin we have to adapt and all the changes needed are changes for the better, no sense at all in going agains it.
Some people are just too frustrated.
"The dedication to repetition — the search for nirvana in a single held tone or an endlessly cycling rhythm — is one of electronic music's noblest gestures."
daark
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Posted : Jun 24, 2010 10:48
could be a good start NOT to leave trash in the nature after the party and take some garbage with you on the way out
mica
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Posted : Jun 24, 2010 15:05
solar flares
Basilisk
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Posted : Jun 26, 2010 00:41
Quote:
On 2010-06-24 08:07, Login wrote:
That worries me a lot, I mean even if climate change isnt of anthropogenic origin we have to adapt and all the changes needed are changes for the better, no sense at all in going agains it.
Right, we need to adapt whatever the cause may be. But anthropogenic climate change is real. Artificial forcing is superimposed on natural cycles. With something as complex as climate there are many drivers, many feedbacks involved. But there is absolutely zero ambiguity about our own causal role in this unfolding drama.
Xolvexs
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Posted : Jun 26, 2010 16:22
climate changes everyday
one day its hot one day its not
you have seasons
you have storms
you have winds
you have snow..
it has been happening for billions of years
its just that the devices we use to record have gotten more precise and the more we measure the more we begin to worry..we try to quantify everything in nature within a "time frame"- like by the 2050 the world fisheries will come to an end-and we make these projections and because of this the whole economic cycle especially those in the industry go on indiscriminate hunting and start exploiting and start saving up for the future in the hope that there will be "shortage" and that time they will be able to exploit the situation and make billions...its very simple banking treasury- savings model conviently introduced to nature--Climate Change--in case you did not notice it change yesterday and it will change tommorow- the degree is just a measurable -and who is measuring and for what are they measuring and why are they measuring and besides whats the accuracy-science gives to freedom to question everything and doubt everything- Climate Change is not about science its about politics- and thats why Al Gore is the face for it and not a Scientist and thats why Nations have Climate Change policy and the scientific community does not vote- they inquire - it took only one scientist to undo everything and change the course of history- Einstein--before him Newton--before him Galieo-they never went for the popular belief "What is real" and "what is not real" - they discovered that for themselves- they did not go by public opinion or votes..thats just bogus horse poop with pickled dil on top on whole wheat toast with mustard and mayo on the side. wrapped in brown paper bag made from recycled paper which was actually meant for printing my brochure but it was of low quality and i rejected it and my printer sent it back to his supplier who repackaged it as Recycled paper sold it at 3times the market rate with a little green logo..and he got Carbon Credits and tax exemption for it...why because its climate change and we are going to die and before we die we need to save money
When death comes to your doorstep, make sure you are alive
Maine Coon
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Posted : Jun 26, 2010 21:53
Quote:
On 2010-06-26 00:41, Basilisk wrote:
...But there is absolutely zero ambiguity about our own causal role in this unfolding drama.
That's not quite true. There is no doubt we have a role. It's not very clear how important that role is. We still may be just a "fourth pirate from the right" in this drama.
I had a friend (he died way before his time), who worked on his PhD in atmospheric physics in U of Toronto. These were his very scientific projections: “30 years from now Texas will be submerged in water and Michigan will grow oranges”. That was 15 years ago. I am still waiting for any sign of validation of his prognosis.
Global climate change is true. Our involvement is true. But there are still a couple of things that are not clear:
- the extent of the problem (hmm, Texas is still there...)
- the extent of our own “fault” in causing it
- the extent to which we can change anything
Since science is pretty murky on those issues, it’s up to politicians and corporate PR to present them in any way that suits their interests. So, it very quickly becomes about getting into your pocket, one way or another.
Basilisk
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Posted : Jun 27, 2010 02:05
The science is less murky than you think. It passes through the filter of popular media before it reaches most people. The press is demonstrably awful at science reporting. Newspapers and magazines are more concerned with selling papers and advertising than they are with truth... hence all these manufactured controversies ("Climategate" being a good example--a lot of brouhaha with no substance and no impact on the actual science.)
You may also be inclined to conflate the consumer-level action items promulgated by corporations and different levels of government as having something to do with the science but this is often not the case... so, for instance, whatever you think about the price point of compact fluorescent lights or recycled paper really has little to do with the facts of anthropogenic climate change.
Maine Coon, all your questions about the extent of the problem and likely impacts will be answered in the most recent IPCC reports:
http://www.ipcc.ch/
Xolvexs, you lack a basic understanding of the subject matter so it would be difficult to carry on a lucid discussion with you. Suffice to say, climate is the broad-scale patterns and trends whereas weather is what is happening right now. The wonderful thing about measurements is that they can be repeated by independent observers. One of the most famous measurements in climate science is the Keeling Curve, available here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeling_Curve
Anyone out there with the proper equipment can repeat the observation and will, without a doubt, end up with data demonstrating the exact same pattern. It isn't subjective.
Special relativity has few implications for the arrangement and organization of our society. Same with calculus and gravity. Imagine if Newton had discovered that burning coal reduces the force of gravity here on planet Earth--and if no one put a stop to fossil fuel usage we'd soon float off into space! He'd be persecuted too. The implications of anthropogenic climate change theory are incredibly far-ranging and--since it is based entirely on fact--require sweeping changes to the very organization of our societies and our economics. Massive change will be required. This affects everyone... so it is incredibly disingenuous to waffle on about corporations benefiting from carbon credits and what-not. It isn't just politics. This is real life! The facts of climate change are not decided by polling public opinion... but the question of whether the human race has what it takes to face up to the challenge of climate change sure is. That's why support for doing something about the situation is necessary. That's why the public face of climate change is Al Gore, not Arrhenius (who described the greenhouse effect in the late 1800s). Because it isn't simply academic--it's something that everyone, everywhere, has to respond to, or the future is fucked.
Basilisk
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Posted : Jun 27, 2010 02:11
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Posted : Jun 27, 2010 08:02
YOu know basilisk I think great part of the peoblem withthis people deynig climate change, peak oil... is that the education sustem has failed to teach people how science works. hoe many people opens a scientific journal? who many understand the critical thinking that is behind modern science: hypothessis, null hypothesis, etc etc.
Thats the problem behind all this misunderstanding.
"The dedication to repetition — the search for nirvana in a single held tone or an endlessly cycling rhythm — is one of electronic music's noblest gestures."
Maine Coon
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Posted : Jun 28, 2010 17:44
Basilisk,
I never doubted the phenomenon or our involvement in it. Even if you discard all the professional science on this subject, there are still layman observations to support this theory. There are people who meticulously document bird migrations in their home areas as a hobby. If you go into their journals, you’ll see that the same bird species arrive in the spring a couple of weeks earlier than they did 30 years ago. And as somebody who lives in the Rust Belt, I do not doubt we carry the blame for the climate change at least to some degree.
As for the official science, it deals with models. And those models are used to make projections. And those projections are used to set policy (by the very people who disburse grants to build those models – hmm, how convenient). Yet, they are still just models. Too few variables – and you are missing important relationships. Too many – and you’re overfitting. The very same data set can be “cleaned”, analyzed and modeled in a million different ways. Add a factor here, break a feedback loop there, change your significance threshold, put words like “non-linear dynamic system” into the discussion – and you got yourself a pretty believable model with pretty convincing conclusions. Yet, Texas is still there, for better or worse. And I don’t see any peaches, let alone oranges, in Michigan. So, we know at least one model was wrong, right? (Unless everything suddenly changes in the remaining 15 years, of course ).
You are enthusiastic about these findings because you are a scientist. I am skeptical about them for the very same reason. I don’t doubt the measurements – just the conclusions. Science is not impervious to politics and commerce (I can give you real-life examples, if you have not observed your own yet). Especially science with such far-reaching social and economic consequences.
The really important questions are not figured out in scientific meetings – they are decided in cozy mansions in the woods of Connecticut and Rhode Island. The only reason there is still any debate on the global warming issue is that those discreet forest dwellers have not reached consensus yet on which conclusion is more profitable to them.
).