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Orb 2009: Suggestions and Complaints Box...
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Wizack Twizack
Wizack Twizack
Started Topics :
239
Posts :
3486
Posted : Jan 25, 2009 02:31
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daya
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
307
Posted : Jan 25, 2009 02:45
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On 2009-01-25 01:49, DiMiTry wrote:
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On 2009-01-24 18:21, bastardsamadhi wrote:
..much better with a traditional "2 stacks in stereo" rather than the 4-way setup used on both stages. 
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2 stacks in stereo almost always sound better
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Agreeeeee...
and I don't get it why some people like to install them (L&R) too close to each other, unless there is an issue of acoustic flow and space, eventho' they already have a monitor speakers, many still do this
Sorry a bit off topic, but if we look way back before, Alladin have improof a step ahead in that first Orb, so hopefully they will keep it up better....
  founder http://www.enkienterprise.com
founder http://www.blacksheephybrid |
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Moonclear
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
Posts :
162
Posted : Jan 28, 2009 22:18
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I loved the Orbs and I think for better sound is again necessary and even increased very good work with acoustics and speakers on both stages. Briefly one time last summer I noticed that the small stage (where was at the time full-on music) had sound clearer and more surround than the main stage. It would be wonderful to have such sound throughout, and, conversely, I ponder the mystery of the noticeable glitches of Deviant Species' (?) set.
Outdoor has different acoustics than indoor and interesting to me is the fact of the lake, a lake causes gigantic acoustic factors/possibilities. For Orb I would plan so carefully for the lake; the sound is as though on a half-peninsula.
I urge Alladin Project and other organizers to consider someday hiring me (whom they probably know) formally, for I gain more knowledge of sound, EQ, etc. year by year and I have been too poor for too long.
Orb tends to be the most expensive party and I bring this up for a reason: I often can't afford parties so it's ontopic. I'm an educated, White Asian, illegitimately adopted woman and I have all these mysterious and stupid problems. First of all I need extra help as a member of the trance community. For example, think to yourselves there is no reason to deny that there is at least one of us, or there is certainly many a talented person in a trailer park or in a poor African nation, who has no new clothes, is systematically shortchanged of necessities, and needs economic help, and then go about helping the person in a logical way. Next, I'm happy about upcoming parties but I gotta to tell you guys that I'm skeeved at my horrible poverty and you take care not to fall through the cracks (I'm on the tenant blacklist??? t or f?? - and I've never held a year lease -- wtf) as seems to be happening to me and probably to some other scene-oriented ppl -- creepy.
Hopefully we will all make it to the next Orb paying the millionaire door price for the little wristband in peace and prosperity.
peace
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CRIS
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
17
Posted : Jan 29, 2009 02:32
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WOW !! new york city is full of sound engineering masters . . .
saco los pedos !!! |
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bastardsamadhi
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
437
Posted : Jan 29, 2009 07:39
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It did seem kind of weird that the chill stage had the same massive sound configuration as mainstage, but instead with sufficient electrical service.
maybe switch the location of the two stages?
that probably puts the doof too close to neighbors, though |
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light-o-matic
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
176
Posted : Jan 29, 2009 11:06
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Ahh sound systems.. one of my favorite topics. I should have checked this thread out sooner.
Anyway, to put my two cents in on the questions that have been raised.
On the front speakers being placed far apart vs them being placed close together...
The common wisdom is.. further apart means better stereo, more people inside the "zone"... So more is better, push them all the way into the corners!
In reality it doesn't work like that.
First, the issues of system timing/phase and dispersion have a MUCH bigger affect on the sound quality than how much stereo separation you can get. Those issues take top priority when deciding how to position the speakers. Stereo separation is important too, but secondary in importance.
Second, you do not necessarily get the best overall stereo image with the maximum speaker separation anyway.
So not only does trying for too much separation hurt the system in other, worse ways, but it might not even give you good stereo.
Ok, on the "two stack" setup vs the "four stack" setup...
Yes it is definitely true that you will get "better" sound from a 2 point setup.. because the more overlapping sound sources you add, the more phase problems you are going to have. Fewer phase problems = better fidelity. That's a fact.
But then, to play the other side, rear speakers add a dimension.. so to speak.. that people enjoy. They add to the stereo perspective mentioned above...
But I think the crux of this issue is the use of the word "stacks" that was used. The implication being that each "stack" is a complete and equal sound source. If you put together this "stack" concept and the more separation is better concept together.. and simply drop a sound system in each corner of the space, with no further thought or effort, then what you get is a mess of phase cancellation and bad timing.
As some here know, I have been at the sound thing for a long time. I have reasonably nice sound system. It makes its way to parties now and then  Sometimes just some of it, sometimes all. I have had the chance to use some different configurations...
I do the simple stereo setup...
I do stereo plus subs (of course)...
I even do the "two stacks" thing...
I have done the distributed (lots of speakers) thing.. but not for psytrance parties...
And I do use rear speakers pretty often. But never in an "equal stacks" configuration.. ever. Call it 2.2.1 if you like.. Stereo + Rear + Subs. The rear is never just a clone of the front, it is always at least EQ'd separately, it is not the same cabinets, the delays are set separately for each set of speakers... Of course the levels are set separately and the rear is carefully balanced to get the right sound. Actually the whole system is tweaked throughout the party as the crowd and music changes. This includes rear levels and EQ's.
With a little effort, it sounds pretty nice, if I must say it myself!
Sure, every system and party is different. Some may never feel the need or want of the rear speakers.. But in my system I find the rear system can be useful, but it does depend on the circumstances. It isn't just ear candy, it actually solves some problems.. and yes causes others. But if done with some care and some taste I find it is often worth it.
(If someone has some loose change and would like to buy me a nice little dvDOSC system I will gladly run it in pure stereo mode for you)
Anyway so far as the Orb system last year, I did not make it to the festival.. too burnt out from other things, unfortunately. But I am familiar with the system in question. It is a good system. And the guy who runs it is a good guy, who knows his stuff. If he set it up a certain way, he had his reasons. Perhaps the power caused him so much trouble that he never had the opportunity to tune things up right. It is a shame that there was not enough power because I know what that system can sound like, given enough power
As far as the power at Echo Lake, this has been a scary thing since the beginning. I remember the first Omnitribe Festival there, and the worry of whether the main panel would be able to take the strain. As you get further away from the house the situation gets worse. There is very little power available down the road. For the second Omnitribe, we had serious lack of power for the second stage (the Burning Elf stage, which was fantastic), I had to do a little surgery on the breaker boxes up there to get things working, and that was a pretty small system... So there is definitely a limit on how far you can go there.
The issue of power is one reason I got the most efficient amps I could afford for my system. Because I want to squeeze as much sound as possible from a portable generator.
Anyway sorry for the lecture, I have said enough! I set out to just make a short comment on two things and ended up with an essay on the problems of psytrance sound. But I hope it was interesting to some people.
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bastardsamadhi
Started Topics :
9
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437
Posted : Jan 29, 2009 18:06
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I can def. see the 4 "stack" metrosound configuration becoming effective once the dancefloor becomes filled with bodies... as was the case at main stage.
as our friendly metrosound representative explained, the "stack" you are closest is "the" "sound system" you listen to, while the distant three stack provide stereo information... "in the back of your head" more or less...
unfortunately, chill stage dancefloor habitation was less than a tenth that of mainstage (at times much less than that!) -- this isn't out of the ordinary, who doesn't want to be at the Rave Stage?
It definitely seemed like the chill stage was set up with the expectation of a crowd sized similarly to mainstage -- the 4 "stacks" didn't sound so hot with a mostly empty space between them. sol'n: get rid of rear stacks ;-)
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light-o-matic
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
176
Posted : Jan 29, 2009 19:00
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Yea I get ya. That does seem overkill for the chillout.
How was the mainstage?
In 2000 I went to this "Evolution Box" NYE warehouse party (Nice Russian woman, I think she just got busy with her kids and job and dropped out of the scene)... They had two 4 stack systems in one good sized Brooklyn loft/warehouse. The same room basically. Crazyness! It was overkill, but on the other hand, it kept you from hearing one area when you were in the other area. It actually sounded quite good when you were within the stacks. I wonder if that was also Metrosound. I didn't know too many people back then...
But yea in general I agree with you. But maybe you will hear how I do it some time. It's a little different.
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Alakazam
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
399
Posted : Mar 12, 2009 07:21
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okay...
so the main stage doesn't have enough power and its doomed to fail ???!!! |
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light-o-matic
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
176
Posted : Mar 13, 2009 01:04
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It's not doomed, it's just an old place with old wiring that was never intended for this kind of thing. It's been 6 years since I looked that their power so I don't remember exactly, but there's enough for at least one nice big sound system. Two big sound systems might be pushing it, especially as you go back into the property away from the source of power. Especially when you add video, lights etc etc. You can't just thoughtlessly plug in more and more stuff and expect it to work. There are ways of dealing with these issues, but it takes some planning and maybe some money... There should be enough for a good mainstage system and a fairly good sized chill system plus everything that goes with those.. with care and planning, and maybe some extra wiring...
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
Started Topics :
75
Posts :
1848
Posted : Mar 13, 2009 02:05
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hardkornate
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
32
Posts :
376
Posted : Mar 13, 2009 03:53
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Quote:
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On 2009-03-13 01:04, light-o-matic wrote:
It's not doomed, it's just an old place with old wiring that was never intended for this kind of thing. It's been 6 years since I looked that their power so I don't remember exactly, but there's enough for at least one nice big sound system. Two big sound systems might be pushing it, especially as you go back into the property away from the source of power. Especially when you add video, lights etc etc. You can't just thoughtlessly plug in more and more stuff and expect it to work. There are ways of dealing with these issues, but it takes some planning and maybe some money... There should be enough for a good mainstage system and a fairly good sized chill system plus everything that goes with those.. with care and planning, and maybe some extra wiring...
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Throwing an outdoor without renting some gennies is not a good idea.
With the artists this org is bringing, they should have the funds to grab a 40,000 watt tow behind($300 a day to guarantee no issues = priceless) |
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mono mono
Onnomon
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
314
Posted : Mar 13, 2009 10:40
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Yeah, last year the "rave" system near the lake seemed to have an overly wide stereo separation. The 2 rear stacks were __really__ far apart so that end felt even less coherent. I thought the chill system (basically the same hardware) had a better sound, actually the chill system sounded pretty damn good. |
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Alakazam
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
399
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 13:34
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Suggestion for the Line-Up Time-Slots...
Friday Night...
Fria 2:00-4:00
Illegal Machines 4:00-6:00
Satuday Night...
Psykosky 2:00-5:00
ect. |
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bastardsamadhi
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
437
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 16:25
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Quote:
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On 2009-03-13 03:53, hardkornate wrote:
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On 2009-03-13 01:04, light-o-matic wrote:
It's not doomed, it's just an old place with old wiring that was never intended for this kind of thing. It's been 6 years since I looked that their power so I don't remember exactly, but there's enough for at least one nice big sound system. Two big sound systems might be pushing it, especially as you go back into the property away from the source of power. Especially when you add video, lights etc etc. You can't just thoughtlessly plug in more and more stuff and expect it to work. There are ways of dealing with these issues, but it takes some planning and maybe some money... There should be enough for a good mainstage system and a fairly good sized chill system plus everything that goes with those.. with care and planning, and maybe some extra wiring...
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Throwing an outdoor without renting some gennies is not a good idea.
With the artists this org is bringing, they should have the funds to grab a 40,000 watt tow behind($300 a day to guarantee no issues = priceless)
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+10
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