| Author
|
new format for psy synthesis descussion?
|
5meohd
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
55
Posted : Apr 17, 2010 02:38:46
|
I'm just curious if anyone else agrees that the "mother of all" threads are really challenging to get anything out of.
On top of that.. there actually is good information in there which prohibits someone like me from asking redundant questions in new threads, in fear of being told to read "mother of all~"
It seems that a general set of descriptions could be discussed/polled and then stickied for each typical sound.
I would agree that experimentation is a must, but I would also argue that psy trance is a very cut and paste/formulaic genre in its MAIN structure.
in contrast though, "psytrance" has spread its wings to cover a lot of sounds and variations (sub-genre's).
point: I'm really confident that any popular synth can make any sound that is generally made with that type of synth (fm, subtractive, additive, wave-table, etc..) and I'm getting a headache reading through all the arguments and /or good hints about SPECIFIC PLUG INS.
so..
don't you think we could narrow it all down and chizzle out some hard settings/facts for "types" of sounds?
e.g. sticky #1 titled with "enter synth SOUND here"
"type of synth used" (NOT SOFT OR HARDWARE UNIT)
"number of osc's"
"which waveforms"
"filter settings"
"unison settings"
"you get the point"
VERY detailed..
and then the comments that followed would be restricted from EVER asking "how do I alter this to sound like this (youtube link here!) track"
and instead could be filled with recomendations on adding osc's... adjusting adsr settings to sound more ???
I think this would be awesome.
what do you think? |
|
|
MeditationProfonde
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
15
Posts :
131
Posted : Apr 17, 2010 03:31
|
I was just thinking to that. I think you're completely right. There are many basic sounds in psy trance like kick, bass, sweep, supersaw, laser that every beginner wants to do because he heard that in almost every track. But there aren't good sources of information for him. We could do a list of psytrance basic sounds, so a beginner won't have to search so much to find how to do them.
 http://www.myspace.com/psyrit |
|
|
|
5meohd
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
55
Posted : Apr 17, 2010 04:23
|
exactly... except! I'm not just talking about basics.. I mean ALL OF IT.
I guess it is hard to break down how I imagine, after all I do have specific artists sounds in mind like alot of other people... but someone with more experience surely has a generic way of resolving this!
like kicks... you've got classic goa.. early full-on.. modern full-on.. dark..
I'm sure they are all super similar, but with thousands of posts asking the same questions would it really hurt to have a sticky for each?
people could chime in and say I use these dark settings modified in this manner with __% distortion on these frequencies to get a womping tech-trance kick like this: and have links.. patches.. etc..
basically like the intentions of the mother threads.. they've just gotten ransacked with worthless fat.
imo |
|
|
|
mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Apr 17, 2010 13:46
|
the mother of all threads have helped me in some ways, but the idea of these threads is to come on there and get a hint. Not an instruction manual. you talk about the difference between kick drums for instance, go read the infected tutorial and experiment. you'll notice that the sound differences are just usually minor tweaks on a parameter for the sound or some effect added to it.
I still feel you need to put in your time of trying to figure out sound and how synthesis works. You can't just expect the mother threads to make your trance for you. Get a synth and deconstruct a preset. That's how a lot of us learned... deconstructing albino presets combined with this forum and other artists showing me stuff helped me get the limited understanding of synthesis I have now.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
|
|
|
aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
112
Posts :
1490
Posted : Apr 17, 2010 20:15
|
Quote:
|
I still feel you need to put in your time of trying to figure out sound and how synthesis works. You can't just expect the mother threads to make your trance for you. Get a synth and deconstruct a preset. That's how a lot of us learned... deconstructing albino presets combined with this forum and other artists showing me stuff helped me get the limited understanding of synthesis I have now. |
|
+1
But i do think it is a good idea...
Maybe you can start by listing all of those sounds most newbs want... from psyfart to goldrays, lasers and squelches...
|
|
|
|
5meohd
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
55
Posted : Apr 17, 2010 21:41
|
well, this is the idea.. to get everyones opinions.
+1 as well^^
but.. lol..
some of us don't have albino!! and I did at one point so I know how similar alot of those presets are to typical psy.... but at this point I decided I was done with "testing" products and not being able to send in crash logs to ableton if it crashes.
so then god created live suite!
thats my main (hidden agenda) with this thread is to be able to make psy with just suite. I'm confident its possible. I'm confident I could bug people into helping me achieve it, I just think maybe some general things would help people across the board with every synth.
also mubali mentions other artists showing him stuff. this is probably the best way for a lot of people to learn, ALOT of us don't have this opportunity .
aciduss: I don't even know what to call some things?
I'm probably wrong.. I just basically meant a gathering of all the really good information thats already here.. not just for me to cheat (I actually prefer synth tweaking to song arrangement anyway!) but for everyone to stop asking the same ridiculous questions over and over and over and over, including me!
plus all the arguing about which synth is better gets old. |
|
|
|
mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Apr 17, 2010 22:27
|
I used Albino as an example, and that was a specific example of what I learned...
So deconstruct some Operator presets. It's a pretty decent synth. Also, sending in crash logs won't get something fixed for you, plus unless I'm missing something you don't get to upgrade for free. I know of several people that use Ableton Live to produce tracks, but very few use only the included stuff to make it all.
Not to mention, most people who are asking the same question don't know how to do research.
In this place people will help you, but you gotta help yourself first. Use the search 
Also when it comes to learning from other artists, you start locally and then you can get other information from nice artists that come in for parties. Not all artists will be down for production questions at the party, but afterwards they might be a bit more accessible... but that takes some effort on your part.
And one important lesson to start with is learning exactly how a synthesizer works. Understand what an oscillator is, what a filter does, and how modulation works, and you can make most of the sounds you hear. A lot of the sound design techniques aren't incredibly difficult, and for some sounds there are even you tube videos on how to make them... I found out how to make dubstep from forums and you tube videos...
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
|
|
|
5meohd
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
55
Posted : Apr 18, 2010 22:53
|
all true..
I think I mostly just need to grasp more on pitch envelopes because I've def. done my standard synth research and fully grasp adsr, oscs, filters and modulation...
also I'm sure alot of producers don't use only ableton.. but I think they could!! the routing is insane. |
|
|
|
orgytime
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
120
Posts :
1703
Posted : Apr 19, 2010 11:21
|
i think "the mother of all" threads are good.
you can get much information... you just have
to read... (for free$$)
you have the synthesis issue right now, later
when you understand synthesis, you will freak
out because of "mastering"... its all hard work.
but people will help you, and hopefully you will
give back a littlebit too (awnsering noob questions
for example). this learning process will never end,
there is no "no-effort-BUTTON".
cheers
www.soundcloud.com/orgytime |
|
|
|
mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Apr 21, 2010 02:21
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-04-18 22:53, 5meohd wrote:
all true..
I think I mostly just need to grasp more on pitch envelopes because I've def. done my standard synth research and fully grasp adsr, oscs, filters and modulation...
also I'm sure alot of producers don't use only ableton.. but I think they could!! the routing is insane.
|
|
if you understand asdr, which is an envelope, then you can understand how the pitch can work in relation to that... sometimes the envelope is the most difficult part of synthesis to understand because it's all about a timed reaction. Lfo's are a constant recurring thing, but envelopes on happen once per note so it's difficult to wrap your head around sometimes.... honestly, the best thing is to have a synth that has good modulation capabilities and see what each modulation source can do to a sound.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
|
|
|
-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
655
Posted : Apr 22, 2010 12:06
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-04-17 22:27, mubali wrote:
And one important lesson to start with is learning exactly how a synthesizer works. Understand what an oscillator is, what a filter does, and how modulation works, and you can make most of the sounds you hear. A lot of the sound design techniques aren't incredibly difficult, and for some sounds there are even you tube videos on how to make them... I found out how to make dubstep from forums and you tube videos...
|
|
for several reasons im no fan of this idea the fred started with. but im also no fan of reading for years through big amounts of senseless stuff in the "mother of...." threads. they gave me really lot of input, but damn it was hard to read on sometimes. at the end i cant get how a simple thing (in itīs general, sure not that easy if you dont have a clue about the basics) like the bassline thread goes into 100 (!!!!) pages and no end visible???? sorry cant get that, i tend to write novels too like usually one can see while reading my posts  but damn, iīd take like one site for this explaining to every noob in a way that one easily will understand how it works and what one should keep attention on (feel free to have a look for my simple basspatch in zebra tutorial, complex synth, easy done, everyone will understand. did i mention i hate isratrance damnin search function??? even googleīs better to find old posts here  )......
maybe not fair to take this thread as an example, cause sure itīs the one with the highest amount of trash and repetations containing, but it often gets to this point at one time.....
i agree the only way is to learn about the basics, which is really not that difficult. learn the basics and learn to listen. most powerful tools in music production. like already mentioned you will understand many many sounds and structures if you know the way a synth and synthesis works. and if all people would just learn about it, many many threads and topics with always the same questions would be at their end..... my opinion.
but i guess there will be no end and people will always ask how this stuff in that song (youtube link) is achieved. even if itīs a sticky here. maybe many ppl should also consider learnining how to use the searchfunction, no matter if google or isratrance. =D
to the dubstep thingy, i had to learn after i heared that sound of this guy, just for those of you interested, think you will like it greg 
http://www.myspace.com/excision
i came to that while i was looking for some ways to achieve the sounds from transformers movie, maybe one or the other remembers.
no one was able to help, i started a thread for that but at the end i sure got some usefull dubstep videos on how to achieve this wobble bass etc. but i was only interested on how synthesizing the sounds. i bought the game etc, wasnt able to rip the sounds off the game. so it took me some while i watched the movie over and over again until sickness, heared this guys music again and again, and thought about how to achieve this with the stuff i already know.
the weired thing of these sounds were the fx chains used. many of the sounds in the movie are just layered sounds simple to achieve, but many stuff just left question marks in my face.
now after quite some while i know how to recreate some of them. but i found nearly nothing about it, weither google or forums like these. the only thing one will find is the sound they make while transforming, but damn i found this myself on surge pretty fast, itīs no difficult sound. i was looking for all these little sounds in the movie driving me nutz eacht time i watch it.
at the end i can say itīs not that difficult, i used mostly fm and wavtable sounds, containing a lot of modulated combfiltering and grainmodulation and thatīs mainly about it.
BUT like i said, i had to watch the damn movie over and over again, listen and think whats happening in each sound. sure you have to know how different fx and techniques work. you should be able to know already whats happening to a sound if you modulate it in one or the other way.
so...... sorry for offtopic, forgot what i tried to mention
anyways excuse the novel, hope you dont mind, cheers
FUCK GENRES, LOVE MUSIC!!!!
http://soundcloud.com/mandarimedia
http://banyan-records.com |
|
|
|
5meohd
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
55
Posted : Apr 22, 2010 12:29
|
did everyone miss the title of the thread?
I never intended on this being for my personal gain... I had a strong feeling I would not be able to put my thoughts into words...
thanks for the input anyway.
and as for pitch envelopes.. yeah I get how all adsr envelope's work the same way.. I'm more curious about how shaping the pitch can create different dynamics.. like how using a quick decay from a high pitch to root note creates more.. uhm.. ooomph..? but in my mind I don't really see why that happens.. and just would like to discuss other phenomena..
I guess this was my main intention: eg:
someone: this sound is generally made like this
someone else: yeah for sure, but thats old news, doing it this way is cool
another someone else: have you guys tried doing this it gives it this feeling like...
ya know... fun discussion while simultaneously ridding ALOT of noob questions.....
much like the mother threads.. except with headers/titles that better describe ideas... and also breakable rules.. like if your english is so bad your tips won't be usable then edit the post when someone kindly clears it up rather than 4 posts all trying to clear up something?
i dunno.. I see I'm just another noob.. |
|
|
|
-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
655
Posted : Apr 22, 2010 13:28
|
well mate, thats a forum for
dunno about your noobi status to me theres no difference between you and me, i guess almost every second bluename here would say he/she is still noob. at which point do i loose my noobi status and get something else?
sorry if the thread doesnt run like you intented, but hey, you asked something and got input, if you keep an eye on other threads you will see that most of them turn into something very different than the topic lets you suggest....
at least i asked for excusing my novel, if itīs too much off your stuff,.....well im sorry
except the sticky thingy you could just do instead of asking what other people think and you wont get that much"trash" of opinion
cheers n good luck
FUCK GENRES, LOVE MUSIC!!!!
http://soundcloud.com/mandarimedia
http://banyan-records.com |
|
|
|
mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Apr 22, 2010 20:01
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-04-22 12:29, 5meohd wrote:
did everyone miss the title of the thread?
I never intended on this being for my personal gain... I had a strong feeling I would not be able to put my thoughts into words...
thanks for the input anyway.
and as for pitch envelopes.. yeah I get how all adsr envelope's work the same way.. I'm more curious about how shaping the pitch can create different dynamics.. like how using a quick decay from a high pitch to root note creates more.. uhm.. ooomph..? but in my mind I don't really see why that happens.. and just would like to discuss other phenomena..
I guess this was my main intention: eg:
someone: this sound is generally made like this
someone else: yeah for sure, but thats old news, doing it this way is cool
another someone else: have you guys tried doing this it gives it this feeling like...
ya know... fun discussion while simultaneously ridding ALOT of noob questions.....
much like the mother threads.. except with headers/titles that better describe ideas... and also breakable rules.. like if your english is so bad your tips won't be usable then edit the post when someone kindly clears it up rather than 4 posts all trying to clear up something?
i dunno.. I see I'm just another noob..
|
|
using an asdr to control pitch has nothing to do with dynamics. The only reason why you associate adsr with dynamics is because it's the primary tool used for volume. However if you take those same concepts and applied it to anything other than volume, you can start to recognize the possibilities with this particular modulation source.
For instance if you do any sort of clip modulation in ableton, you're drawing an envelope. A fade in is an envelope, a gradual bpm shift is an envelope as well.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
|
|
|
5meohd
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
55
Posted : Apr 25, 2010 02:49
|
I don't really get anything about what you just said?
Dynamics (music), In music, dynamics refers to the softness or loudness of a sound or note. The term is also applied to the written or printed musical notation used to indicate dynamics (also known as volume in a song)
how does the pitch envelope have "nothing" to do with that?
I def. understand abletons modulation tools..
in almost every kick tutorial I've ever seen they use a steep pitch curve to give some type of "smack" or "suck" which I thought was effecting the dynamics of the audio.. no?
especially now.. after seeing that the common psy squelch has alot to do with pitch mod this strengthens my curiosity of the "theory" of pitch modulation and how it can create such VARIED sounds from.. say.. the exact same oscillators.
sorry.. i'm probably at a horrible stage of life.. i'm taking everything seriously and almost feeling offended by certain comments.. even though there is no way to expect anyone to know where I am actually at with my knowledge.
sorry.. its just like this.. I'm on the edge of my seat like "oh oh oh Mubali replied to my thread.. awesome!" then I go in.. and you've graciously taken your time.. except told me nothing I didn't already know
I guess Ill just start taking a similar route to others by posting links and stuff to specific questions..
I wish ableton didn't have this jacked up method of releasing updates where you create an instrument or fx rack and it can't be loaded in a previous version (like 8.1.3 can't work with 8.1 etc) or I would think of sharing .asd files as a great way to learn
thanks for your time guys.. and I guess even in just a weeks time or so I've learned how helpful every one is and to not really worry about things being a little imperfect around here.. cause eventually somebody somewhere posts some GREAT shit!
|
|
|
|
|
