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Need something explained
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 15:59:26
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Can someone explain the difference between modulating vibrato with aftertouch and modulating pitch with velocity? Maybe just a clear explanation of the difference between modulating with aftertouch and velocity would help. I've read and know what each of these do, but haven't been able to figure out what mechanically makes them different. Thanks!
  http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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mubali
Mubali
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:13
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velocity- how hard or quickly you initially press the key.
aftertouch- how much force you give the keys after you intitally touch the key.
Basically you don't always bang the keys to make a sound but you might lightly tap a key first and then hold it down after the light tap.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:30
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Ok, that part I understand, I just don't see how it mechanically works in electronic production. If I am modulating something based of how much force is applied to a key I'm not actually playing, what is controlling that beyond the velocity assigned to that note? Does aftertouch take the note length into account then in combination with the velocity? Are velocity and aftertouch related at all?
This mostly stems from an interview I read with a producer (I think it was Sunsys) who said he puts an aftertouch on most things to give it a more "realistic" feel. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:32
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Assuming you're using Cubase and a keyboard that supports aftertouch, when you are recording MIDI you can see that sometimes there is MIDI data written in with the notes (blackness that decreases to the right). That blackness is the aftertouch. When you look in the MIDI editor, you can see the velocity meter along the bottom and the MIDI notes will be color coded to reflect this.
You can do an experiment where you record MIDI while you bang on some notes hard and barely play any. You can see the banging and the light touching along the bottom. Then record a MIDI where you hold a bunch of notes down. Then you can see the aftertouch in the work area.
Vibrato is basically the sound of a sine LFO assigned to pitch. In this case, more velocity = a stronger vibrato. Modifying pitch with aftertouch means the pitch will be high and get lower and lower as you slowly release pressure on the key.
Conversely, tremolo would be like a sine LFO assigned to volume. "Wah" would be the same thing but using filter instead of volume.
Breath control (another obscure parameter) can be imagined by how hard you blow into a wind instrument. Usually, keyboards don't use this.
A good experiment to see what different MIDI data does is to take a single oscillator and assign pitch to whatever MIDI source you are curious about. This will give you the most recognizable modulation.
I know that was more than what you asked for, but I hope it helps anyway. |
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:38
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On 2009-10-19 17:30, Ascension wrote:
Ok, that part I understand, I just don't see how it mechanically works in electronic production. If I am modulating something based of how much force is applied to a key I'm not actually playing, what is controlling that beyond the velocity assigned to that note? Does aftertouch take the note length into account then in combination with the velocity? Are velocity and aftertouch related at all?
This mostly stems from an interview I read with a producer (I think it was Sunsys) who said he puts an aftertouch on most things to give it a more "realistic" feel.
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Generally, on a "normal" piano you can imagine the effect of velocity like this:
velocity --> volume
On a synthesizer, if you assign velocity to something else, like velocity --> pitch, the notes will all be the same volume no matter how hard or soft you bang the key, but if you bang the key hard, the pitch will be a lot higher than if you bang the same key soft.
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
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601
Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:40
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Quote:
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On 2009-10-19 17:30, Ascension wrote:
Ok, that part I understand, I just don't see how it mechanically works in electronic production. If I am modulating something based of how much force is applied to a key I'm not actually playing, what is controlling that beyond the velocity assigned to that note? Does aftertouch take the note length into account then in combination with the velocity? Are velocity and aftertouch related at all?
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i think what you fail to understand is that these are more of performance modulations. this stuff is important for those who actually do play their lines with their hands in a live setting or when tracking. if you are drawing notes in, you shouldn't really worry about this, since everything they do, you can do with automation or twisting a knob.
also, aftertouch and velocity are not related at all. keyboards or controllers with aftertouch can sense the difference in pressure you apply on a key, after you hit the key and before you release it (hence, AFTERtouch). so if i assign tremolo to aftertouch, after i hit the key and while the key is still pressed down, i can alter the amount of tremolo by pressing harder and then letting go a little, but not releasing completely. so there's just some whiggle room of a still pressed key. https://soundcloud.com/dead-end-dance
https://soundcloud.com/shellbound |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:44
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On 2009-10-19 17:40, septa wrote:
Quote:
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On 2009-10-19 17:30, Ascension wrote:
Ok, that part I understand, I just don't see how it mechanically works in electronic production. If I am modulating something based of how much force is applied to a key I'm not actually playing, what is controlling that beyond the velocity assigned to that note? Does aftertouch take the note length into account then in combination with the velocity? Are velocity and aftertouch related at all?
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i think what you fail to understand is that these are more of performance modulations. this stuff is important for those who actually do play their lines with their hands in a live setting or when tracking. if you are drawing notes in, you shouldn't really worry about this, since everything they do, you can do with automation or twisting a knob.
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That's actually the part that I understand the clearest. I just didn't understand how/if it was applied to drawing midi notes in ableton  . Is it a stretch to say that if you aren't recording live keyboard or instrument playing, then aftertouch and breath modulations are worthless/don't do anything?
Thanks for the info so far guys.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:46
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That's about right.
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:50
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On 2009-10-19 17:46, Axis Mundi wrote:
That's about right.
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Good to know . After reading about aftertouch I had tried using it, but never heard anything change, I just didn't realize it was related to how the sound was recorded (actually playing vs. drawing midi notes).
Spanks! http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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601
Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:51
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Quote:
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On 2009-10-19 17:44, Ascension wrote:
Is it a stretch to say that if you aren't recording live keyboard or instrument playing, then aftertouch and breath modulations are worthless/don't do anything?
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yes. it's just an extra intermediate step.
you -> aftertouch -> pitch
vs.
you - > pitch
https://soundcloud.com/dead-end-dance
https://soundcloud.com/shellbound |
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Oct 19, 2009 17:56
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Things like aftertouch and breath control are useful for creating atmospheric and pad-like sounds, for example, afterotuch for strings emulations or breath for winds emulations. If you don't have a controller that supports those MIDI messages, don't worry about it really. (Unless there's a way to draw in aftertouch or breath manually, which I don't know how to do... maybe septa or mubali or someone else does.)
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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601
Posted : Oct 19, 2009 18:04
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i would imagine it's the same as if you were to draw out any kind of continuous controller. in cubase, where you have the velocity lane, you can select aftertouch, breath controller, etc. but it would just be an extra step. say, your aftertouch data goes from 0 to 10. and you assign aftertouch to pitch and the amount in such a way that 0 to 10 means the pitch will go up by 1 cent. it would be much easier to just automate the pitch directly to go up by 1 cent, instead of automating the aftertouch which then controls the pitch.
https://soundcloud.com/dead-end-dance
https://soundcloud.com/shellbound |
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