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need some ideas and opinions please :)
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Nov 23, 2004 21:58
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On 2004-11-23 17:48, Epsylon wrote:
I think darclon is quite clear about what he's after.
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Indeed and what he needs to achieve it is knowledge and experience. In case you didn't read his post properly, he has one synth and the rest is VSTis. There won't be much difference working at 96Khz as he isn't recording that much. And even if he is, it still won't make 1% as much difference as learning the tools.
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| i want more transparency, more punch and more clarity in my tracks. i want to get a "big" step closer to the "professional" sounding music! |
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And of course there are no "professional artists arround that don't work at 96Khz ... Bzzzt! Wrong answer. 
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Now if someone ever gives you the chance to go and mix your work on a Digi HD system, you shouldn't take it. You should stick to your soundblaster cards, because according to what you say here, there's absolutely no need for it.
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Lets not be realistic and compare with a good soundcard. Oh no, lets compare to a soundblaster ... There is ALOT of stuff in between and, for your information, there are much better converters arround than the Digidesign ones.
I have access to three HD systems but guess, what, I mix and master in my own studio because ProTools doesn't offer much that you can't have at home. And btw, it is NOT a mastering package.
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yeah right, that's why I'm recording @ 96Khz and mastering @ 192KHz and my trusty DSPFactory is up here for a sale 
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So you fell for the hype ... Are you a released artist? Can we hear the results of this 192Khz mastering somewhere?
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| also, most music will be mastered to around 11khz or so (so that's only a quarter of the samplingrate), so that leaves a bit of oversampling of the signal.,
if you dont belive me just use a spectrograph and see how much energy above 10khz there is in a typical psy production,,. |
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With all the respect, where did you get that from ?
You are talking about two different things here. One is sampling frequency and the later is audio frequency.
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Although what he says about mastering at 11Khz is non-sense and the reason for there being less energy in the higher bands has to do with the way our ears work, I really don't think he is confusing the two types of frequencies.
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If you don't know the difference between the two I suggest you go for Kitnam's advice, or better still, take up an engineering course (this is simply a genuine advice and i'm not trying to sound patronising, to no extend).
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So Epsylon, you followed an engineering course and can repeat a few terms you heard in school, be sarcastic and make fun but can't actually explain anything?
Seems like you wasted your money.
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According to the above we should never abandon the Amiga platform then, and we should all keep sequencing on Bars&Pipes and still use Akai 950s with 14bit output, using only 8bit samples.
That would save us some serious money too.
The last quote is far from being right, terribly misleading and I won't go into that due to the excessive typing that requires.
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Oh sure you can type to mock people and write drivel but you can't type to explain anything ... I reckon that is because you can't really explain it properly.
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A fact is a fact ... a rumour is a rumour ... and if you can see the truth in this, then there's no debate.
I suggest you do a google search
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Is that where you got your knowledge?
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So... lets sum it up , shall we ?
- You can go and buy a Lamborgini Diablo if you 've got the money. But it will not be much of a use if you don't know how to drive.
- You can read all the libraries of the World and try and learn the principles and tricks of driving. But still you need to get behind that steering wheel before you've been given out any licence to take your car in the streets.
- Talking cars, some like driving a mini, some ,like me, will go for the Lamborgini.
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Ah yes, you are all about showing off. That explains it all.
UnderTow
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Epsylon
Artist
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
41
Posted : Nov 24, 2004 20:31
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You are absolutely out of time and space with your allegations m8. Read my posts properly please and with no prejudice. There's no intention of destructive sarcasm in them, whatsoever (a bit of a laugh with some bull. maybe, can't help that)
Thanx for throwing mud @ me thinking that my intentions are for showing off, without even knowing me. I can't stress enough how terribly wrong you appear here to be. I didn't pay for my courses m8, and earned my bachelor @ the same uni in Salford as Seb Taylor (Shakta) and many others. (period)
you are welcome to add my addresses to your messenger and come in for a chat anytime. You can also find me on irc, efnet with the same alias.
Not letting me xpress my opinion openly without attacking me here is pure Fascism to me. You are free to believe whatever you like. I personally don't give a tosh.
ps=too much weed can make you paranoid yunno ;)
still, all the best to you m8
(after all we are just humans;)
C. K.
more ps= many professional artists can't afford yet to upgrade their systems, others they 're happy with things just the way they are, others again haven't got enough space on their hard disks for the storage of double sized 96Khz files. But you probably haven't thought of all these yet.
 - www.djchristos.com
- www.illuminaughty.eu |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Nov 24, 2004 20:39
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epsylon,
"Now if someone ever gives you the chance to go and mix your work on a Digi HD system, you shouldn't take it. You should stick to your soundblaster cards, because according to what you say here, there's absolutely no need for it. "
no i would not.,
i prefer logic with motu convertors.,
there is nothing special about pro tools anymore.,
it's not the '80 anymore you know.,
screw protools
and who said i have a soundblaster?
"yeah right, that's why I'm recording @ 96Khz and mastering @ 192KHz and my trusty DSPFactory is up here for a sale "
it's propably because you dont know yet what clock jitter does to a convertor.,.,.,
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about the 11khz mastering thing,
no, i'm not confusing things,
i do use the word oversampling in a creative way tho ., excuse me for that
what i mean is that the signal is still sampled at 44.1khz but you apply a steep hicut filter (at around 11k or so)
anyway, the stuff between 10 and 20k is baaaad stuff cause this whole sampling therum sux and does not compensate for phase so you get a form of aliassing BEFORE you reach the niquist freq., very few ppl seem to realize this., even less ppl i know have HEARED this ., so you get a lot of problems in that area., but THANKFULLY most people are deaf in those area's and bullshit professors get away with nice theories
but seriously, 2 samples for one cycle of a waveform is realy too little to describe it properly.,
what if these two points happen to be the zero crossings? then you are sampling (or reproducing) nothing.,
anything down from 10k will be a much better reproduction of whatever it was you try to reproduce.,
anyway,.
take a spectrum analyzer, a-weighted, whatever, and look at dance music in general.,
most tunes will be hi-cut around 11k or so.,
the thing is that most PA's wont reproduce anything higher and your ears wont register it anyway after listening at club levels for 10 minutes..,
also, i think i read something about vinyl mastering and afaik there was a reason why it was good for that too.,
but i'm still not sure why exactly this is done.,
maybe a lot of producers just dont produce properly in those regions and the guys at mastering go "man, we realy need to cut this out"
neway,
greets.,
aka., |
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AvS
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
464
Posted : Nov 24, 2004 21:38
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On 2004-11-24 20:39, ZilDoggo wrote:
what i mean is that the signal is still sampled at 44.1khz but you apply a steep hicut filter (at around 11k or so)
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Who does? I sure don't and listening to my collection of CD's i hear/see lot's of things going on above 11khz. Even dark mixes like William Orbit's has freqs above 11khz. Some spectrum analyzers might not pick it up but try applying a 11khz cut yourself at around 11khz and listen. Loses lots of sparkle. Even the vocals has frequencies above 11khz.
Don't know where youve heard this. Do you have any links of other people talking about this 11lhz thing? |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Nov 24, 2004 23:09
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hy guys.,
i must correct myself.,
most tunes seem to be brickwalled around 18khz or so.,
well, the difference is a little more than half an octave., so in sonic terms it's not so gigantic.,
so i think i have slightly overdone and didnt checkl my facts :0 (well, cheked them now, but not before
working from memmory, OMFG , i'm getting old
but there is something about brickwalling around 11k region in my memory, i think it must be about the vinyl mastering i guess.,
anyway., pretty sure most PA's wont reproduce anything above 12k or so.,
btw, if you want to do experiments yourself make sure you use realy steep filters., otherwise you will be cutting lower frequencies as well,.,
well, i'm a bit shocked by myself
greets.,
aka., |
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AvS
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
464
Posted : Nov 24, 2004 23:23
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hehe
18khz sounds more reasonable but I still don't believe you. Wavelabs FFT spectrum analyzer shows activities above 18khz to.
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Nov 25, 2004 00:14
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On 2004-11-24 20:31, Epsylon wrote:
You are absolutely out of time and space with your allegations m8. Read my posts properly please and with no prejudice. There's no intention of destructive sarcasm in them, whatsoever (a bit of a laugh with some bull. maybe, can't help that)
Thanx for throwing mud @ me thinking that my intentions are for showing off, without even knowing me. I can't stress enough how terribly wrong you appear here to be.
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Hey man, I wasn't slinging mud at you. (But I see I forgot a smiley right at the end). Just giving you back some of your own medicine.
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I didn't pay for my courses m8, and earned my bachelor @ the same uni in Salford as Seb Taylor (Shakta) and many others. (period)
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Seb is a nice guy. We had Natasha and him play at one of our gigs in Amsterdam. Ask them about me. You'll see that I'm a nice guy too.
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you are welcome to add my addresses to your messenger and come in for a chat anytime. You can also find me on irc, efnet with the same alias.
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I added you. Drop me a message any time.
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Not letting me xpress my opinion openly without attacking me here is pure Fascism to me. You are free to believe whatever you like. I personally don't give a tosh.
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Poking a bit of fun at your own poking is fascism? Lets not get melodramatic now.
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ps=too much weed can make you paranoid yunno
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Is that the reason for the fascism comment? Hehe. Havn't smoked in a while actully. Hmmm weed ... tasty!
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still, all the best to you m8
(after all we are just humans;)
C.K.
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And to you too!
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more ps= many professional artists can't afford yet to upgrade their systems, others they 're happy with things just the way they are, others again haven't got enough space on their hard disks for the storage of double sized 96Khz files. But you probably haven't thought of all these yet.
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That and much more but the bottom line is that for psytrance, 96Khz is overkill and anyway, if you really want to use high sampling rates, you are much better off using 88.2Khz. Any advantage of 96Khz over 88.2Khz is more than lost when downsampling to 44.1Khz.
UnderTow |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Nov 25, 2004 00:35
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On 2004-11-24 23:09, ZilDoggo wrote:
hy guys.,
i must correct myself.,
most tunes seem to be brickwalled around 18khz or so.
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That could be the mp3 encoding. But seriously, I don't know of any mastering engineers that cut stuff off at 18Khz. Some anti-aliasing filters might start at that frequency but I think they arn't very good then.
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but there is something about brickwalling around 11k region in my memory, i think it must be about the vinyl mastering i guess.,
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I know the sub-bass is removed on vinyl to avoid the needle jumping out of the groove. The bass is also made mono (for the same reason) and in general vinyl doesn't go much above 16Khz or so. It could be that they filter the extreme highs. I don't know. I don't really like the low-fi sound of vinyl.
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anyway., pretty sure most PA's wont reproduce anything above 12k or so.,
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More likely to be arround 16-18Khz or so and they do produce sounds at these frequencies. Just less. And some PA systems do go all the way up. Alcons Audio for instance have nice ribbon tweaters that go to 20Khz.
UnderTow |
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mono mono
Onnomon
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
314
Posted : Nov 25, 2004 02:25
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COMMITTMENT NOT EQUIPMENT
These days most PC's are up to the task of making music and it sounds like you've already got plenty of plug-ins to synthesize sounds. Now you've got to hack those plugs, take them "out of the box". You need to analyze those tunes that sound "big" to you: A-B listening, spectrum analyzers (see how the frequencies are spread out), level metering (check the average and peak energies for loudness), applying EQ'ing to the tracks as they go into the mixing process. After having the computer tools, a set of good audio monitors is the next best investment. Find the biggest room (with a suitable amount of padding/carpeting/tapestries to kill the room echoes a bit) crank the "big" tunes up, listen carefully, then do an A-B with yours. After getting the volume levels close to each other, listen for clarity, spaciousness, wholeness, driving kick/bass thump. Sometimes it's difficult to pull yourself emotionally away from something you've done. It's easy to mentally color your work with what you think it should sould like rather than what it really sounds like. Objective listening to your own tunes is tough. The next best thing is to find another person deeply interested in production to bounce ideas. If you're just starting out try to be as brutally honest as possible because there WILL BE lots of room for improvement.
I'd say good PA's can cover 30Hz to 20KHz with no problem, and LOUD TOO! This is where you can really hear the difference between a crappy reverb and a good one. I've analyzed tunes and notice some producers (like Atomic Pulse) like extend all the way up to 20KHz as opposed to starting a gentle roll-off around 15K. Of course, Atomic Pulse tracks sound real sparkly to my ears.
and, of course, the isratrance forum is a good place. Then there's the Dreamweaver's forum, a dedicated group of producers...UnderTow?
-dz
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Nov 25, 2004 04:53
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On 2004-11-25 02:25, mono mono wrote:
COMMITTMENT NOT EQUIPMENT
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Absolutely!
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Then there's the Dreamweaver's forum, a dedicated group of producers...UnderTow?
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You called? I don't want to take any fire away from this forum. Also, I like the vibe we have there so friendly introductions to friendly people rather than mass marketing techniques you know ...
UnderTow |
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Liquid Textures
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
31
Posted : Nov 29, 2004 13:00
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Get the New Virus, and some mackie monitors and the RME fireface, that should do |
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