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Need some advise for Hi Hats and Cymbals
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Ellon
IsraTrance Full Member
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1223
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 13:55:14
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These are the elements im struggling more in my music composition/production to the point that i'm currently using samples and loops for it !!!!!! But this is not the way i want to go so some advise would be really welcomed...
I always feel that:
1st - my hi hat doesn't carry enough weight without taking it outside the music and turning it into something intrusive...
2nd - all my crash cymbals usually dont fit the whole and tend to become sort of an external alien element in the music...
So any good recomendations?
Thanks in advance
 
https://soundcloud.com/arglebarglemusic
http://soundcloud.com/turvytopsy
http://soundcloud.com/capecodplatform |
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Fragletrollet
Fragletrollet
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111
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1748
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 14:29
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jizy
IsraTrance Full Member
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90
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1493
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 15:21
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bit crushers? extreme hp's? Microtonic is good for easy tuning freqencys to the track
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master bud
Started Topics :
6
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144
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 16:29
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Hey man,
for hihats find some very good sounding factory drumloops (listen to the overall "brightness" and "punchiness" of the loop elements) and cut ur hihats from there. If ur lucky you'll cut some hats which really don't need any post fx in this way. They are ready when u are. Try vengeance loops.
For crash cymbals try some hi shelfing+dub delay for making that long decay.
my 2 eurocent
Making what you want with what you have |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 16:30
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point 1 -
Gating and Compression are your friends.
Use a nice gate that has a wet/dry control, of allows you to mix in some of the ungated signal. Make sure the gate attack is as fast as possible. Have a very quick release. Set the threshold very low. Now, grdually move the threshold more and more towards 0db, and move the release a little up (very very approx - maybe 15ms, but it depends on the gate you are using). When it is right, the hat will start to sound almost like it is 'tempo synced' it isn't, obviously, but it will just gel better with the mix. Gates which feature a hold time can also be very useful. Let a little of the original signal back through to whatever sounds best - this helps reduce the abruptness of the gate.
On the compressor, let the attack of the hat through, roughly 5-20ms (can vary considerably) around 6:1 - 10:1 ratio, and whatever it takes on threshold and output gain to sound good.
If you want them to feel a little more 'alive', try using a subtle, slow phaser or flanger.
EQ before, or after, or best of all both - paying particular attention to bottom after the gating compression and phasing/flanging stages, as these processes can all really affect the lows of a hat.
Apply a little early reflection reverb. Personally, I dislike long tailed verbs on hats - Or mixed very far back to the point where they are almost inaudible. Don't over do it with the delay on the hats, you find that it kills the funkiness. Use your ER verb to make them sit better in the mix.
Point 2:
most important - better samples
second most important - long tailed reverb and delay
third most important - potentially quite aggressive EQ to notch out troublesome frequencies.
to try - use two different (but similar in sound and length)samples, and pan one hard left, and the other hard right .
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Ellon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 24, 2009 17:46
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
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5380
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 18:03
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Bleja
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
17
Posts :
84
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 18:21
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get Thomas Penton - Essential Drums & Percussion these are the best!! |
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
601
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 18:57
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Quote:
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On 2009-06-24 16:30, Speakafreaka wrote:
Use a nice gate that has a wet/dry control, of allows you to mix in some of the ungated signal. Make sure the gate attack is as fast as possible. Have a very quick release. Set the threshold very low. Now, grdually move the threshold more and more towards 0db, and move the release a little up (very very approx - maybe 15ms, but it depends on the gate you are using). When it is right, the hat will start to sound almost like it is 'tempo synced' it isn't, obviously, but it will just gel better with the mix.
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what's the advantage of doing this as opposed to carefully setting the sample's envelope (if you are using a sampler)? i find myself decreasing the release on almost all my hat samples (and sometimes the sustain level too to make the body smaller) to make them groove better (which is what you probably mean by being "tempo-synced").
as far as reverbs, do people put a single reverb on their whole percussion bus to put them in the same "room" or is it generally better to use it in an fx bus and send different amounts for each percussive element? does using several reverbs in the 2nd example give you more control or only make things more messy and disjointed by making things appear to be in different environments?
https://soundcloud.com/dead-end-dance
https://soundcloud.com/shellbound |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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779
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 19:33
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well, rather than advantage, how about I tell you the difference - and I'll leave up to you how substantial you find the difference? 
The cutting of from the gate is triggered whenever the signal falls below a certain level - wheras the cutting from an envelope is time dependant from the triggering of the envelope (assuming MIDI trigger with a sampler).
Personally, I find that its beneficial to my mixes (and for myself more intuitive and far quicker to set up) to control these things through level rather than time.
I know of people though who much prefer to do it your way though!
Also, I don't use samplers - I will load lots of hat samples onto one audio channel, and when trying to tie up a load of disparate hat samples, its another layer of glue to the compression - all the hats start to get exactly the same treatment, which really helps them work with each other IMO
The ability to EQ before this and the compression stage is really useful, therfore, as the release/compression is level dependant - you need to understand what is being put in to control what is being gotten out.
Further to this, a lot of these gates imbue a bit of 'character' - which again, is personal preference rather than straight advantage, but something that I often like
Groove is indeed what I'm talking about with 'tempo synced' - obviously, it isn't groove either, as that would imply some kind of quantization away from grid, which isn't what is going on - but definitely, I'm talking about that indefinable quality of 'just so'.
As for reverbs, I'll run at least two, and often more, each doing different things, always on sends.
This definitely gives more control, but like anything that gives more control, can also make things more messy 
More control is always the route I personally take though I have faith in my ability to make it sound none messy
Think of it this way - two (or more) reverbs can still define one space, but unlike using only one reverb, you can control where it is in the space you are putting your signals.
.
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
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601
Posted : Jun 24, 2009 20:00
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 24, 2009 21:12
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I would work on your hihat placement / arrangement before even thinking on compressors / eq.
If you are now using premade loops is because the ones you create doesn't work well...
Maybe you should post an example of what you are failing at.
My hihat lines used to sound really simple and non dancey at all but now i have got that shikilaka shakey groovy feeling... i could give you tons of little advices if that's the case lemme know.
About the crash... u should remove some of the mid high annoying fqncies and add long tail verb, you can also layer a clap/snare for strong hits, just watch your db meter |
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Ellon
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
56
Posts :
1223
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 14:18
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Quote:
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On 2009-06-24 21:12, aciduss wrote:
I would work on your hihat placement / arrangement before even thinking on compressors / eq.
If you are now using premade loops is because the ones you create doesn't work well...
Maybe you should post an example of what you are failing at.
My hihat lines used to sound really simple and non dancey at all but now i have got that shikilaka shakey groovy feeling... i could give you tons of little advices if that's the case lemme know.
About the crash... u should remove some of the mid high annoying fqncies and add long tail verb, you can also layer a clap/snare for strong hits, just watch your db meter
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i'll post an example of some cymbals im "doing"....also i found Izotope to be very useful for these elements (cymbals)!!!! But definitely EQ is where the secret is...
Thanks for the input...
https://soundcloud.com/arglebarglemusic
http://soundcloud.com/turvytopsy
http://soundcloud.com/capecodplatform |
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
671
Posted : Jul 1, 2009 16:49
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On 2009-06-24 14:29, Fragletrollet wrote:
Get better samples
Always tune your samples to the key of the track...
Layering percussion is good for fattening up (you can for ex. copy the hat, pitch it down an octave and mix to taste with the original)
always remember, you cant polish a turd 
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What can i use to detect the key of my hihat?
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Saii
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
83
Posts :
318
Posted : Jul 1, 2009 20:37
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Quote:
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On 2009-06-24 21:12, aciduss wrote:
I would work on your hihat placement / arrangement before even thinking on compressors / eq.
If you are now using premade loops is because the ones you create doesn't work well...
Maybe you should post an example of what you are failing at.
My hihat lines used to sound really simple and non dancey at all but now i have got that shikilaka shakey groovy feeling... i could give you tons of little advices if that's the case lemme know.
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Great thread guys!
@ aciduss
can u share with us ur methods of hi hat lines?
saii.rave.ca |
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