killik
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 29, 2013 03:22
nope im not.
dunno what u really need. as far as i know the aeolian is simply the natural minor scale.
if i imagine having the sylenth1 arp and i want it to play the whole aeolian scale it would go like this:
0 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 8 - 10 - 12. while 0 is root note and the number just tells how many halfsteps u have to go up from the root note
:O!
http://soundcloud.com/killik
Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 29, 2013 13:15
I'm not sure but for the keys I've looked up, the aeolion differs from the normal scale
the b5 means that in a chord, the 5th note in the scale or the 3rd note in the chord, is deliberately flattened by the composer.
i.e. c e g for c major. the chord is then c e (b)g
although its more commonly used in a minor so would be c (b)e (b)g.
The reason for this is because chords are constructed of major and minor intervals. Where a minor is 3 semitones and a major is 4. A chord is then made up of a tonic, the 1st interval and a second interval, although more can follow. The point of the b or # is to change the expected interval in a typical chord conveniently. So for example you would have a Cmin chord made of C bE G which is a tonic, minor and major interval. You could change this to tonic minor minor by saying flat 5th. (Dont look at me its just a convention. )
the a Cmaj(b)7 means that the 7th note in a scale (4th in the chord) is a flat. i.e, c e g (b)b
Cmin(b)7 is c (b)e g (b)b.
Although flat5ths and flat7ths arent really all that important in trance, I think its important to know this kind of stuff, because it allows you to know what the harmonies are called.
But in trance I think you will get a lot more from understanding that chords or harmonies can be implied using different instruments/layers, and leaving the 3rd note out until another layer exposes the harmony, or takes it away when another layer replaces one of the others. Also counterpoint teaches you how to move the melodies and harmonies around so they interweave in both predictable and unexpected, surprising and dynamic ways.
Another very important section is understanding harmonic resolution, false resolutions, modulation, which gives you tools of satisfaction, delaying gratification and deliberate frustration of the listeners expectations. Very effective when you want to chill people out or frenzy them up strategically.
If you want an example of a very interesting track which uses the flat fifth similarly to holst's mars, look no further than manifold - tomahawk. In the intense section they use a I - V - Vb -IIb progression.
Fakso
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Posted : Apr 30, 2013 00:30
again thanks, the counterpoint sounds interesting the wikipedia in my language says that it's somehow about 2 or more melodies playing at the same time but are harmonic in itsself and together, that's what I need, big struggle there, anything that would help me there? explanations, webpages to read for?
with the layering: when I want to play a chord, I could use e.g three instances of a synth with different sound evryone playing one note of the chord, that would be a chord too?
For the counterpoint.
Because each basic chord is made up of at least 3 tones, you can therefore, by leaving out one of the tones, keep the listener guessing as to what the chord is, because there are always a few other chords which share those two tones, and only when you add the third is the listener sure. (for example F major and F minor both share a F and C, while a C sus 4 also share the C and F, but until you add the A or Ab or G, the listener is not sure.)
Making melodies which play around on this ambiguity deliberately can really both release or frustrate the listener.
BUT its also a more complicated act to follow, because on top of understanding how harmonies resolve, you have to choose them so that they are ambiguous and consequent creating harmonic progression in convenient ways. And the biggest bit is that the harmonies arise out of the melodies (which are obviously chosen to work together to give rise to those harmonies), but not the melodies out of the harmonies. Think of it like three painters using different colours for a mural, each only control their colour, but a greater picture emerges if they skillfully inter-twine their work.
The counterpoint would come in as two or three seperate melodies playing the tones from related chords in a chord progression that not only imply one set of harmonies, but rather ones that move around as the harmonies are created from out of the melodies. Just making something up quick, one melody could be banging on the F and C alternating in rhythms, while a bass could be playing the G then Ab then A. Somthing like that.
Then the melodies could change to use the F and D while the bass moves to the A and sticks around. And you just made a hrmonic progression by moving around the melodies to play around on the tones from different chords cleverly and strategically.
Why do I say strategically? Because all these devices are pointless if you don't make em imagine something like a dancer or robot or meandering zombies or angry bastards or whatever. Very few methods are compatible, and if you dont use them in compatible ways it just becomes an amateur mishmash with the occasional lucky strike.
You can use the different tones from a chord on different layers and yes you are technically playing the harmony from a chord.
Chords with left out notes are in a state of ambiguity, until the last note is brought in or withheld strategically.
P.S. this can take a lot of effort to learn. Which means it implies opportunity costs, like not having other jobs or income streams. You have been warned.
Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 30, 2013 12:27
again thanks, there really is much to learn and always be with music production
I'm a fan of strategy and techniques;) for me creativity emerges from knowing what your doing and not just thinking of something, only with knowledge about techniques and stuff it is possible to transform your feelings etc. into the sound you want.
made a track lately with lots of samples to see if people really do it mostly that way in certain type of prog...and yes sounds close, it's fun but I want more
'like not having other jobs or income streams'
well I'm skipping uni because of this, the things there are rarely interesting in comparison to this and a degree wouldn't bring that much more money than a "normal" job(dunno why I mention this, never played role to me), can't sit down and learn always some beats going, I have finally managed to make a satisfiying bass and this time really so the next things come up, notes/harmonics and sound programming
Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 13, 2013 02:22
so I'm back with a question
is there anything concerning the use of chords during a track
currently I have one in Fm, I have Fm and A#m as chords
pad + lead play notes that complement together as these two chords and an arp that is playing these chords too (before the breakdown I left one note out on every chord, sound just like those melodies in lots of tracks before the breakdown, I guess you're right with what you said about leaving ou notes)
so is there any problem if I play an Cm e.g now just every 4 bars with another new synth sound? basically is it ok to just throw in a chord here and there but is not really part of the chords that play most of the time but just in some parts of the track
https://soundcloud.com/noordzee-laborant
killik
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 13, 2013 02:53
bukboy
Hyperboreans
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Posted : May 13, 2013 17:31
Hi Fakso - what is your bass note playing? (that usually decides what your tonic chord is.)
I forgot to mention a really big detail of counterpoint. Its main purpose is to allow you to make melodies that can do anything in around and out of scales, without sounding bad.
Basically the only thing you have to worry about is that two notes you are (simultanously) playing, make a discordant clash (a minor or major 2nd (which is a semitone or tone) ) when you dont want discordant, or make a lovely harmonic interval like a minor or major 3rd (minor or major third (3 semitones, 4 semitones) ) fifth (7 semitones) etc, when you don't want one.
so, the tones of the A#min are A# C# F, and the tones of the Fmin are F G# and C. While the tones of the Cmin are C D# G
as you can see the when you are playing the A#min, the Cmin will clash because it contains the C while the A#min contains the C#, and will sound really ugly, unless you want ugly for a halloween trance track. the Cmin's G will also grate with the Fmins G#
but no problem. this is where composition creativity comes in. How you solve this problem makes you into the composer, the entrepreneur of entertainment media. for example just for that moment stop playing one of the discordant notes and no clash. You can do this smoothly by morphing the one note into the other as the cmin starts playing. then you can morph the other one while not playing one of them. Possibly with a lovely energetic rhythym for an energetic buildup or a lugubrious lazy slide for a chill session.
Anything goes really so long as it doesn't break the rules harmony when its not supposed to. But break the rules when you are supposed to. i.e. when you want noisy cacophony for craziness. (people usually try to do both without knowing the two are really mutually exclusive for many reasons, like they interfere sonically and make the instruments muddy, and also make moods conflict. but it is possible to do it skillfully. think resident evil track from marilyn manson with detuned plinky plonky along with noisy guitar)
helps?
Fakso
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Posted : May 13, 2013 20:19
yes very helpful, found that Cm thing out myself when I tried to connect them;)
my bass is g#0 as it was best sounding, another problem would be that when I want to go up or down the bass timbre changes dramatically, but it would be nice to have a good sounding f0 in order to complement later in the track
Fakso
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Posted : May 14, 2013 01:37
Well as Fm and A# remain my only chords, I decided that my key change in bassline is from g0# to c#1,simultaneously alternating with the chords, both are 2nd in the chords, and as far as I was able to hear(very low volume now as it late here) the lowend does not sound strange when changing key
https://soundcloud.com/noordzee-laborant
Fakso
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Posted : Aug 6, 2013 19:49
alright heap this one up again
so When I play Am Dm and then Am and then F A F (instead of D)...would the F A F be a chord? because it sounds quiet well
)
..at least very futureristic pads 