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Mother of Pan - before vs after This happens
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T O T A L
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 30, 2007 14:01
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Should panorama of an instrument be set (anywhere out of center) before or after exporting vsti to audio for further mixing?
Let me think aloud:
1) BEFORE - because the image does not get narrowed artificially; any reverb or chorus fills the space naturally, and it should not be messed up, unless this is the desired effect
2) AFTER - because this means greater control at the later stage of production, unless you are sure of the placement of a part from the very beginning
Is 1) really true? I understand that MIDI panning of VSTi's OSC source could be undestructive for the width of the sound, but panning mixer's panning seems to perform exactly the same process before and after export to audio.
If there's any fallacy in this thinking, pls correct me. |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 30, 2007 15:08
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I find there is only one logical way of bouncing.
Bounce dry, centered.
Pan back to right place and add effects after.
Bounce again later if you're absolutely sure of the position and to save the effects to free up CPU. |
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T O T A L
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 30, 2007 20:12
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Logical and simple.
Thanks.
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 30, 2007 20:48
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Couple of handy bouncing tips
Make a track folder and put the midi parts in with sensible names so you can go back and change notes if you need to.
or
Create a project alongside your working one that contains all the instruments, patches and midi parts but keep the VSTs switched off so it doesn't overload the CPU. Time consuming - but if, like me, your projects grow quite large and you work on them for long peroids of time, it can be very handy to have things to go back to.
Or
Just save your project with an increasing number every time you make an important bounce |
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T O T A L
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 30, 2007 23:53
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I have been recently gradually switching from v3 to 2 and 1, but I realize tahat the more plugins (even off), the greater the risk of a project corruption.
Conveniently, A.Live enables drag-and-drop exporting/importing tracks between projects, along with all the midi and VST.
And project looks in its browser like a folder you can 3ly explore w/out.
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T O T A L
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 1, 2007 04:26
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Getting back to this export-panning issue.
So if I want a pad synth part to be played panned -63 to the left and its pre-mixer reflexions in a return track to be centered, I have to
1) export main track panned - or the result (export centered and then pan) will be different
2) export the return track before putting the synth aside, because the main track's export will be already panned
Is this right? |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Oct 1, 2007 07:21
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I wouldn't export it panned. just centered. This leaves you with the fullest control over the signal in the mixer. You can pan it later and still pre-send it centered to a return track if you want, or other 10 return tracks if you really want. No need to bounce return tracks... (unless you have some personal ideas)
Panning is a part of the mixing-stage, therefor I would want to keep both the level and panning at their square 1 potential. It's a dynamic area...
Heck, if I could, I would never bounce audio at all - just leave it all as it is for maximum flexibility. But if I decided to bounce, which is a limitation already, I would like to keep things limited to a minimum - such as centered panning for example.
 Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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T O T A L
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 1, 2007 15:12
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Trip, you must have a hyperfast machine or some hw/sdp if you don't bounce.
In this project I want to see what level of complexity of tune I can reach and how radical changes can be there without losing consistence.
It is not impossible that this project will then split into several tunes - a ver.
But till then, the number of tracks itself would be overwhelming (Live does not support Folder Tracks).
In this particular case the return track is loaded with WavesDoubler processors placed paralelly, all on and the routing is gradually passing from one to another. The result being a subtle hardly audible breeze transforming all the time. I tink at this stage of the project I can bounce it.
As for bouncing centered of the source track (later to be -63 Left), just to make sure:
Bounce a centered synth, then pan entirely to the left - it is NOT equal to synth bounced centered [no reverb, delay or chorus involved here], is it?
In other words:
is centered pan two times wider than extreme to one side?
Hope it's clear  |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
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356
Posted : Oct 1, 2007 16:51
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Adharaguy
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posts :
138
Posted : Oct 1, 2007 23:33
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Hello there....
I have somme question about panning to. Is a very important subject.
I now that we can use panning when we have 2 instruments in the samme frequency range to avoid the "masking" effect. But for example if we wanna play 2 instruments and is important to lisen in the 2 speakers how much i have to put the 1 instrument in the left and the 2º instrument to the right.
(ex: 1º inst-L39 :::: 2º instr.-R39). I want to now if there is a "standart value" for this....
And i have another question..
When we want to put all the music in the left or in the right, when i lisen profissional music this sound cool, but when i do that its sound vey "hard" i feel a punishing......
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
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Posted : Oct 2, 2007 00:23
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Quote:
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On 2007-10-01 15:12, T O T A L wrote:
Bounce a centered synth, then pan entirely to the left - it is NOT equal to synth bounced centered [no reverb, delay or chorus involved here], is it?
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It's not so clear to me mate... bounced centered or bounced centered?
I thought we are discussing just the synth channel. Even if it has inserts on it - we are still not including return channels.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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T O T A L
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Oct 2, 2007 17:30
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Yes, it may look confusing. Let me try to explain what I mean on a different example.
Let's forget return tracks and insert effects.
A plain synth just an osc and filter.
You exported it centered at an earlier stage.
At a later stage you realize you need it to play -63 left.
Now, is it enough to
1) just pan the previously bounced audio to -63
or
you had better
2) unfreeze the synth and bounce the part with the synth's pan shifted to -63.
Does it make any difference in the sound? |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Oct 3, 2007 20:38
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Since you are talking about something as extreme as a complete pan to either side (63), I'm sure there is no difference - not even in the final level.
I suppose if you were panning in between 0-63, there might be a difference between how panning works in the synth and in the DAW.
It's not a difference that you will experience in the mix, since you can always use your ears to pan it to your perfect. Howerever, I would use the DAW mixer for all signals leveling (channel positioning), just to keep it at reach.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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T O T A L
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posts :
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Posted : Oct 3, 2007 23:54
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DAW panning, same as Tomos suggested.
Thanks Trip-
Final question, out of curiosity.
How is the effect of panning achieved technically?
Is this just through the proportion of volume of two channels, so that the perceived movement is illusionary? |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
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Posted : Oct 4, 2007 01:41
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You might want to read this article:
http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=3661
added to that, you can't really see a drop on the channel meter when panning from hard left/right to the centre - apparently there is a drop anyhow, at least in the analog world (and digital as well of course)
I suppose u'll need to record one speaker panned left/right and panned center to measure the dB drop.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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