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Mixing question: geting the center free
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MuckyPuh
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
86
Posted : Jan 17, 2013 23:20:00
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Hi Mates,
i recently learned that when recording an guitar amp with multiple micĀ“s .. lets say 4 .. a handy mixing technique can be to pan them like this:
take 1:
medium left, medium right*, hard left, hard right*
take 2:
medium right, medium left, hard left, hard right
when you now inverse the phase of the ones i marked with a * the center should be free and you could for example mix in the ambience mic at the center ....
well that was the theory ..
i tryed to make the same effekt with a simpler form - just inversing the center and paning one hard left and hard right - like this:
take1:
hard left, center*
hard right, center
but then i asked myself how it is even possible to get the center free from a sound that is not panned either hard left or hard right, because as soon as we percive the sound from both speakers we will percieve the phantom sound source as the center (depending on the balance ofcourse)
so what is the actual effect ? both speakers still play the sound - just with less volume ? or will now other elements in the center be less masked from the guitar wall ?
but how is that possible if the center is not a own channel but just the balance between left and right ? 
  http://www.muckymusic.blogspot.de/
http://soundcloud.com/muckypuh-muckymusic |
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Alekzis
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
81
Posted : Jan 18, 2013 00:56
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jan 18, 2013 04:30
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if you have two versions of the exact same sound, on two channels and you invert the phase on one of them, you get silence. and you'll only be able to listen any change you make between the two. for example: if you put a bell eq a few dB up, what you'll end up with is something like a BP filter of the sound. same goes for panning: if you pan one of these to one side, you will be increasing the volume on the opposite side, and maximum panned (out of phase). if you place the other side on the same pan value you will get a centered sound, only, it will be on the phase limit of the stereo image, and therefore nothing on the center. you can send this to a group and then reduce the spread of it, if you don't want as much separation as this. it's a rather weird way of doing things, but worth the experimenting with it 
bear in mind that when such a sound is reproduced in mono it totally disapears - that is, if both versions have a similar panning value (but opposite), so be sure to create enough difference there, to pull it out of the anti-phase zone. |
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woodster77
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
119
Posts :
1733
Posted : Jan 18, 2013 11:32
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youre talking bout the "HAAS" effect
you have to phase invert a send signal to the other channel i think which produces a massive difference in the stereo perception ie Widedning
im not sure how to set it up 100% but if you search for Haas youll get there |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jan 18, 2013 23:39
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you can get haas effect by simply making a double of a sound and putting a small delay on the double and pan them both in opposite directions (no need to inverse the phase)...
that's a clever way of creating stereo depth and placing sound, but this is another story: it's a way of getting phase cancellation on the center, and still manage to year a coherent mono sound (equal volume on both speakers) and place something else on center and be able to hear both very well, despite the frequency content of them. It's one of those weird tricks. But it does work.
Try to think of it like this, two doubles, one of them with phase inverted, cancels each other. If you pan one of them, you year the other side raising in volume. This thing is like, doing this twice for each channel. Then by placing the centered two in the middle they don't completely cancel each other, but anything from them growing to the middle gets canceled. Something like this. In practical terms, you're able to mix another sound in the middle. But once you do that, this sound will appear on front of the other. Can have insane volume and still not raise the mix volume much to. It's worth to give it a try. |
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MuckyPuh
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
86
Posted : Jan 18, 2013 23:49
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@ Alekzis
mid side is recording - i was talking about a mixing technique
@ woodster77
well the Haas effect has nothing to do with inverting - the haas effect says that if the same signals comes to your ears from two different sources - lets say from the main stage speakers and also from other speakers more close to you - if the sound from the main stage speakers reaches your ears within 10 to 30 ms earlier then the sound of the second speakers more close to you - you will still have the perception that the actual sound source is the main stage ....
@frisbeehead
yes that with the EQ and the invert is a fun thing to do but i didnt know it works also with the pan
i just played around a bit and wow - quite heavy movments on the multiscope ... so theoreticly the center should now be free from that element and other center based elements should be less masked no ?
http://www.muckymusic.blogspot.de/
http://soundcloud.com/muckypuh-muckymusic |
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MuckyPuh
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
86
Posted : Jan 18, 2013 23:52
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Quote:
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On 2013-01-18 23:39, frisbeehead wrote:
In practical terms, you're able to mix another sound in the middle. But once you do that, this sound will appear on front of the other. Can have insane volume and still not raise the mix volume much to. It's worth to give it a try.
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hehe yes .. its always a bit hard to imagine with theese type of tricks
http://www.muckymusic.blogspot.de/
http://soundcloud.com/muckypuh-muckymusic |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jan 18, 2013 23:54
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I think so.. even though an analysis will show the sound centered, because it has similar volume on both sides (if that's the case) there will be effective erasing of the center of the stereo image non the less, I guess. And yeah, I feel that's true, much less masking and huge separation. |
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