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mind to computer -- is it ever possible?
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zooter
IsraTrance Junior Member
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771
Posted : Jun 24, 2004 09:08
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I haven't ever worked with neural nets, and I'm not going to put electrodes in my brain, but I seriously think this could work... 
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no need to put electrodes in your brain 
but since you're a computer scientist, would you be knowing ppl who are doing research in this field and their thoughts on such ideas?
  Interviewer: "So Frank, you have long hair. Does that make you a woman?"
Frank Zappa: "You have a wooden leg. Does that make you a table?" |
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Amygdala
Amygdala
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Posted : Jun 24, 2004 09:52
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Well, of course I know a bundle who program neural nets on a daily basis. They seem (like me) to believe that anything is possible...
About actual brain experiments and interfacing - I don't know even one. That might change though, because being done with computer science, I start my studies of psychology in a couple of months. Rumors have it, that the university I go to a pretty much into physical psychology (neurons, actual brain-stuff), so I look forward to investigate a little
- Amygdala |
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zooter
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jun 24, 2004 14:08
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hmmm....that's really nice (but please treat the monkeys properly, after all, we came from them....)....
and yeah..i'm an animal lover |
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ZilDoggo
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Posted : Jun 24, 2004 14:36
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damn, i accidentaly cleared my post,. grr.,,
anyway, too keep it short.,
i think we will see some form of neural interfaces in the near future .,
these would be replacements for our external interfaces (muscle controll, sight, touch, etc.)
the other issue of having a computer interpret our thoughts is a lot more complicated because we use a lot of different parts of our brain to generate things that we perceive as imagination.,
this means also that 'meaningfullness' is not located in one convenient place in our brain but is scattered around ,.
furthermore these places are more or less variable.,
so this would be very hard to locate in a person.,
then there is an emotional side to our 'inner' experien ce.,
often it is not so much a concrete thing we imagine but something vague in an emotional context.,
this is even more difficult to interpret because our whole brain is influenced by emotions.,
you whould have to know how a persons brain is influenced by that (maybe personal/original) emotion.
you would have to know about this persons memories and motivation.
in fact, you would need something much much smarter than a brain to do it (that's my view anyway)
basically it comes down to this.,
the inner workings of the brain is a balancing act.,
almost every part of the brain is somehow involved in everything.,
so it would be almost impossible to directly interpret thought.,
all we can do now (and in the near future) is interface with our external sensors/motors because these are abstracted down to a simple interface.,
so there propably will be a brain-to-midi convertor sometime in the future but you shouldnt wait for something like a thought-interpreter because it's not very propable it will be here in our lifetime.,
greets.,
aka., |
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Input
IsraTrance Junior Member
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24
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456
Posted : Jun 24, 2004 15:11
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On 2004-06-24 14:08, zooter wrote:
(but please treat the monkeys properly, after all, we came from them....)....
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Well, Not all of us
Space is the place
http://www.megabit.co.il |
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sentire
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2
Posted : Jun 24, 2004 16:56
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"in 20 years we will have the computing power to simulate a living cell in software. in another 20 years, we will be able to simulate a collection of cells as large as the brain in software. only then, imo, will we be able to do the research that will lead to what you're asking. effectively, we need strong AI."
people thought the same thing in the early 60's.
i think 40 years is way opptomistic being we havent a clue how the mind really works. |
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Amygdala
Amygdala
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175
Posted : Jun 24, 2004 21:43
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Zooter> I wouldn't dream of treating animals cruel - but do we really descend from apes...? Some people think we are an entirely different species - with the flaps of skin between our fingers and what not... Oh well, that's another discussion
ZilDoggo> All very true. The interface to the brain would definetly have to be tailored to the individual person who has to use it. I don't think it's fruitfull to create a device that emulates and interprets a brain specifically. Rather, it should LEARN to interpret a set of mind-processes by conditioning and some sort of pattern-recognition scheme.
But sure enough, we would need a hell of a lot a computional power and storage...
- Amygdala
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jun 25, 2004 10:43
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There are some experiments going on with so-called 'grids' that are implanted in the head, onto the motor-cortex: the part of the brain that is involved in coordinating and executing movement. Through these grids activity can be recorded from the motor-cortex, and this can be used as an input for prostetics or a computer. Of course it takes a while to learn how to output the right info, but this can be done throug bio-feedback. At the moment this is only done in a research context for people that have lost the connection with their muscles, but it might be used with healthy people in the future. Might be that live acts in the future will consist of people dancing on a stage with fire-wires coming from their heads =) |
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florin
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Posted : Jun 25, 2004 13:16
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people thought the same thing in the early 60's.
i think 40 years is way opptomistic being we havent a clue how the mind really works.
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the current clue says "let evolution run for this long and you end up with the brain". it is a very strong clue and it is testable:
if you look at moore's law and current quantum chemistry codes (which can fold proteins _now_) and extrapolate, you reach the conclusion that in ~40 years we'll be able to simulate a volume of reality the size of the brain. if the clue is right, we should eventually obtain brain like structures in that volume. how fast that will happen after the computational power is there is anybody's guess. i think it will be soon after.
by the way, the AI approach of the 60's was idealistic in retrospect: they were looking for elegant solutions via math. it went nowhere despite tremendous intellectual effort. we might eventually reach such an AI, but i think it will be the achievement of another AI. |
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Amygdala
Amygdala
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12
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175
Posted : Jun 25, 2004 13:49
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Uncanny... I was going to pose the Moore argument in the next "round" |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
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663
Posted : Jun 27, 2004 17:01
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first of all, my letter T on the keyboard is having a bad day., so dont worry when it's missing (i'll try to correct it as much as possible)
florin,
you say:
the current clue says "let evolution run for this long and you end up with the brain"
i think the major problem with such a statement is that it leaves out the environment as a evolutionary shaping tool .
you can do evolution in a computer environment but you will not get a brain out of it.,
this is because you did not stimulate the thing you want to grow into a brain with the right environment.,
there is no need for it to grow a brain.,
unless you also have an appropriate environment.,
this environment would have to be much much bigger than the volume of the brain,
the brain is a specialised solution for dealing with exacly the kinds of problems our ancestors had to deal with., also in exactly the right order.,
otherwise you will get a differen soluion to the problem., (not all problems in an environment require a brain to solve.,, sometimes bigger teeth are enough )
the brain has been shaped by evolution, evoluion didnt 'make' anything.
in fact, evolution is the result, not the cause.
DNA in a certain environment is the real reason why we have a brain. Evoluion is just the process of matching changes of DNA to the environment. It's the proof of the pudding.
now, back to your theory about extrapolating a brain structure from a simulation of evoluion.,
this cant be done, i say.
first of all, it would require you to simulate DNA.
now, as you know, this is a very large molecule.,
very very large., abou 3 bilion pieces of information that ineract on a quantum level with their environment.
you need this molecule present in every cell you simulate.,
you also need for it to function properly (with all quanum-physical effects of every atom in the simulation)
even with more's law we are unlikely to see it in our lifetime.,
more's law must be broken., big time., otherwise forget about it.,
then you need to fold proteins., but not only a few.,
you're gonna need to fold a lot of proteins for every one of the 100 bilion neuron cells in the brain .,(which, btw, all have a copy of the DNA molecule, 3 bilion pieces of info)
so such a simulation would require AT LEAST 300 bilion bilion pieces on information., not to menion interaction beween this informaion.,
that would need mores law to take a permanent vacation.,
then, to give the dna reason to change for the better you're gonna need an environment to which this brain can be shaped.,
rember, the genetic difference between us and monkeys is minimal,., it's all in the details.
so it would need a very very specific change of/requirement from the environment to evolve this thing into a human-like brain and not a monkey-brain.,
very difficul stuff to predict, if not impossible.,
in the end, the environment will dictate the shape/possibilities of a DNA system.,
and to be honest, we dont know what the exact environmental circumstances were that led to human like brains.,
we are even unsure how environmenal changes would affect evoluion.,
so there are two major problems wih simulaing evolution on a scale tha would produce a brain.,
1) we dont know how to do it properly and dont expect to know unill we have sufficien computational power.
2) we havent got the computational power to know this (or experiment on it on a reasonable scale) and are not expecting to have enough of it in the near future.,
so it's a bit of a lost case
also, dont forget that it took DNA a very very very long time to get to this point and all the steps were nessesary (evolutionary speaking).,
even IF we could simulate this process in real time it would take bilions of years to calculate through.,
also remember that nature usually finds the most easy/energy preserving solution to problems., anything we come up with will propably be much less efficient than the real thing.,
ooh, and more's law is a self fulfilling prophecy., you cant trust it to be correct in 40 years,
greets.,
aka., |
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zooter
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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771
Posted : Jun 28, 2004 07:11
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offtopic:
i've just finished Isaac Asimov's first 2 books in Robot Series (Caves of Steel & Naked Sun)...can't wait to get my hands on "The Robots of Dawn" .
how does it tie in with the topic? Read Isaac Asimov and you'll start to believe that anything is possible with computers
and i wouldn't be surprised if Asimov is proved true (none of us would be alive then though) |
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limbic
Limbic
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
282
Posted : Jun 28, 2004 09:15
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Man there is something that makes sounds from your head into vst its call
KNOWLEDGE
check it out is kinda cool is like u guide yourself true all knobs without waisting time... |
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medir
Inactive User
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Posted : Jun 28, 2004 12:22
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...okay...missed much, can t read everything: however, us-military has done some experiments to control jets just via mind...succesfully ! -this was some years ago...can t find any info though.
but i guess turning "ideas" ( not just commands like at the jet ) into impulses is pritty hard...i say at least 187 years...or even muchos more...
bomski
experiment !
make it your motto day and night.
experiment,
and it will lead you to the light.
the apple on the top of the tree
is never too high to achieve,
so take an example from eve...
experiment ! |
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zooter
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jun 28, 2004 13:46
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On 2004-06-28 12:22, medirium wrote:
...okay...missed much, can t read everything: however, us-military has done some experiments to control jets just via mind...succesfully ! -this was some years ago...can t find any info though.
but i guess turning "ideas" ( not just commands like at the jet ) into impulses is pritty hard...i say at least 187 years...or even muchos more...
bomski
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interesting...from where did you arrive at the figure 187 ?
Interviewer: "So Frank, you have long hair. Does that make you a woman?"
Frank Zappa: "You have a wooden leg. Does that make you a table?" |
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