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master volume question
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 15:24
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Charles is right. Things can clip and distort in the plugins at various places in the signal chain even if you lower the master fader. It is best to keep a healthy amount of headroom while mixing. Things can always be made louder during mastering (or the way I work, in the master bus). Things will usualy sound less choked and constricted if you keep healthy levels of headroom.
He is also right about EQs and filters easily overloading even when removing frequencies. Same for sample rate converters. But you have heard his music. He knows what he is doing. No need for me to confirm that. 
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| It's even recommended to lower about -3 db to avoid clipping, many small informations can be too close to the "over" and be read as a clip in another digital system |
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It is even worse than that. The AD converters will often clip due to inter sample peaks that are over 0 dB FS even if a typical digital meter shows no over. (Proper inter sample peak meters are rare and are certainly not included in Sonar/Cubase/Logic/Fruity etc).
This problem is made worse by the way we tend to compress and limit our music to the max. Ideally, we should leave 1 bit of headroom for the AD converters but try and tell an artists that their CD should be 6 dB softer than any other artist...
UnderTow |
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
Started Topics :
147
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1441
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 15:29
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Interesting stuff this..So let me see if i understood everything correctly by summing up all the info in this thread..
1) It is a good idea to keep your master fader at -3db
2) Even if the master isn't showing clipping but a certain channel is then you should turn that channel down instead of the master
 http://www.soundcloud.com/getafixmusic |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 15:37
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On 2006-02-09 15:29, S-Cube wrote:
Interesting stuff this..So let me see if i understood everything correctly by summing up all the info in this thread..
1) It is a good idea to keep your master fader at -3db
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No no! You should keep your master fader at zero and lower the levels of all the channels so that you end up at arround -3dB (or lower) on the loudest peaks.
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2) Even if the master isn't showing clipping but a certain channel is then you should turn that channel down instead of the master
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Exactly.
UnderTow |
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charles
Triptych
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
155
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 16:00
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Quote:
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On 2006-02-09 15:24, UnderTow wrote:
but try and tell an artists that their CD should be 6 dB softer than any other artist...
UnderTow
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Indeed, this is one of the main problems 
"And i saw the angel come down unto me"
www.soleadmusic.com |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 16:25
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ok i get the pic but mixing say 35 channels and none of them are over the 0db even in peaks say all are aprox -1-2db and master is set to 0db you still can have clipping on the master bus about 1-2db so to avoid that lowering the master fader by 3-4db will assure me that nothing is clipping at any time and still got the headromm of 1-2db to pump up some quiter sounds!
after mixdown you can fix that in mastering and pump the track to 0db for that extra volume and no degredation in the quality will occur right?
orange
http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 17:03
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orange-atropa, it depends if you have something on the master bus or not. In theory you can do what you describe if there are no plugins or if these plugins can handle inputs above 0 dB.
Personaly I prefer just lowering all the tracks by a few dB instead of lowering the master fader. (It might be because this is so easy to do in Sonar. Just click-slide your mouse pointer down all the tracks and they are part of a temp editing group. Grab any of the volume faders and pull it down. All tracks will be pulled down).
UnderTow |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 18:02
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no plugz is on the master channel no need for them at the point of creating the track!
ok i think my qeustion has been answered in the best way!
i will conitnue to work us i work it suits me well and the sound is fine !
i leave the volume pumping to the engineer i will just focus on making the track as best us i can and avoid clipping on the master!
thankz alot!
orange
http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
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3709
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 19:45
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Great thread! it was about time things like this got cleard out...
thanks! |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 21:23
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On 2006-02-09 15:37, UnderTow wrote:
No no! You should keep your master fader at zero and lower the levels of all the channels so that you end up at arround -3dB (or lower) on the loudest peaks.
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I thought it was you who said that it doesn't matter in a 32 bit float environment since there is more than enough headroom to allow you to leave the tracks at close to 0 dB and adjust with the master fader.
Am I confusing you with colin or did I misunderstand what you was saying?
Regrdless I just can't bring myself to touch the master fader myself having grown up with analogue, and also in Logic it's really easy to adjust all the faders to get it to peak at -0.1 if you like, so thats what I do because it feels better to me.
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
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3954
Posted : Feb 9, 2006 23:40
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All of this wouldn't matter if you use 24bit. Really.
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john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
47
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263
Posted : Feb 10, 2006 00:52
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I thoguht it was you who said that it doesn't matter in a 32 bit float environment since there is more than enough headroom to allow you to leave the tracks at close to 0 dB and adjust with the master fader.
Am I confusing you with colin or did I misunderstand what you was saying?
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actually Colin said that in a thread I started that discussed a similar matter. |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 10, 2006 01:31
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On 2006-02-09 23:40, Mike A wrote:
All of this wouldn't matter if you use 24bit. Really.
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Clipping for sure matter also with 24 bit.
And if you record the signal at low levels the processing when mastering will be done at a lower resolution.
So gain structure for sure applies to 24 bit as well.
The question is how much it applies to 32 bit float.
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Feb 10, 2006 01:36
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Quote:
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On 2006-02-09 21:23, Spindrift wrote:
I thought it was you who said that it doesn't matter in a 32 bit float environment since there is more than enough headroom to allow you to leave the tracks at close to 0 dB and adjust with the master fader.
Am I confusing you with colin or did I misunderstand what you was saying?
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That must have been Colin as it wasn't me.
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Regrdless I just can't bring myself to touch the master fader myself having grown up with analogue, and also in Logic it's really easy to adjust all the faders to get it to peak at -0.1 if you like, so thats what I do because it feels better to me.
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Entirely agreed. I usualy stick to the gain structure approach of analogue myself. As I work in various different (commercial) studios with different hardware and software, sticking to known and proven audio enginering practices means I don't get caught out by unpleasant surprises ...
UnderTow |
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Feb 10, 2006 01:45
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Quote:
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On 2006-02-10 01:31, Spindrift wrote:
Clipping for sure matter also with 24 bit.
And if you record the signal at low levels the processing when mastering will be done at a lower resolution.
So gain structure for sure applies to 24 bit as well.
The question is how much it applies to 32 bit float.
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Of course clipping matters.
But if you have a decent recording device with reasonable SNR ratio, even recording at -12db peak will give much better results than 0db. Agree?
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Feb 10, 2006 02:06
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Quote:
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On 2006-02-10 01:45, Mike A wrote:
But if you have a decent recording device with reasonable SNR ratio, even recording at -12db peak will give much better results than 0db. Agree?
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Agree. Especially as most "prosumer" sound cards are not that well behaved arround 0 dB FS.
UnderTow |
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