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making a vst from scratch
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elesdifrend
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
159
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161
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 05:56:34
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Hi people
I have been lately studying a bit java programming language and seeing the whole software thing from "the other side of the mirror", so i would like to know what program and programming language do you use to do a vst from zero. If someone builds his own vst`s I would really appreciate a bit of light in the darkness!!
Thanks in advance for any bit of advice!! |
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
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87
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2822
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 06:04
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i dont know much but i tried as well.. 
you would need C/C++/Objective C/maybe little Java..
check out the developer stuff from steinberg...there is the whole explanaition of vst available..
then you would need all that math stuff for actualy developing..and proper understanding of something special..then the actual DSP coding, for lower cpu and stuff..
not that easy dude, but if you once got this vst description done , then it is supposed to be not that hard anymore..
good luck...
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ohshit
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
45
Posts :
605
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 09:22
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
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779
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 09:48
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those are excellent links...
... but there are other ways.
I've studied a lot of code over the last few years, and picked up a few uni level qualifications, but I still prefer going down the Synth Edit or Synth Maker route for VST production.
There are several reasons why I (currently) prefer this route.
1) The VST SDK is not IMO particularly well documented with examples, or even a cohesive base of users who might be able to help you should you run into trouble (which given the complexity of the SDK, you almost certainly will).
2) When you are first starting out building effects and synths, there is more than enough confusion about the DSP, without running into issues regarding the language, or the SDK, which again, are almost inevitable.
3) All the tools which create VSTs like SM and SE will give you an extremely easy to use overview of what inputs and outputs the SDK provides, and hints at how it works when (if) you decide to switch over. SM is particularly clear about this IMO.
4) Both SM and SE allow you to use code 'snippets' (far easier to do in SM) so you can start bridging the gap between the two.
Now, I'm not saying that going down this route is perfect - far from it - there are efficiency overheads, and sometimes things are not implemented as one would desire, and beyond this after a certain point of effect or synth complexity, it seems to all fall apart a bit ... what I'd do for dynamically instantiated class objects for example ...
If you are hard set on going down the syntax coding route, then there are several VST 'shells' that handle the VST interface, the one that instantly springs to mind in your case with the Java experience are
http://vstnet.codeplex.com/ which allows you to develop in C# (basically badly coded M$ java) or any other .net language (for the love of everything, not VB.net, please) or
http://jvstwrapper.sourceforge.net/ which works with Java.
Both are difficult to use and annoying to set up. In addition to this, neither language is noted for its efficiency in comparison to C++ - the native language of the VST SDK. In addition to this, they both have very small user bases, and are not well supported, as typically 'wrappers' are developed by hobbyists, who quite simply do not have as much time to throw at bug-fixing in comparison to Steinberg.
My suggestion, and what I am attempting to do myself, is to use SM or SE as a protoyping area, where I deal with the DSP side of things, and then transfer the classes and methods I create into the VST SDK in C++.
Good Luck.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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80
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3207
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 11:12
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regarding the uhe side it is possible to programm vst with delphi??
I suppose you need some skills of java and c++ ,so for people who are only interested in it - is delphi a good starting point or better to get in learning process of java or c++ at first?
Or is it better to get firstly more serious with delphi?
I guess without any real skills there is no need to start synthedit or the maker.Id only like to get more infos.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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779
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 11:33
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If you want to learn to code, my advice would be to learn C++ or Java, which are very similar syntactically. Having learnt either of these two languages reasonably well, many other languages are just 'readable' straight off the bat without having to especially learn the language.
There doesn't seem much sense to me to learn a less efficient language, unless it is particularly easier to learn. So, I'd say see how you get on with the more efficient language first - and if it is to hardcore, then try Delphi.
C++ has a bad reputation as being hardcore to learn - which it really isn't particularly - C, on the other hand is much harder, although still perfectly possible.
I found these tutorials to be excellent when I was trying to get a handle on things.
http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/
There is an free express version of Visual Studio which gives you a half decent C++ compiler straight off the bat - you can use it to make VSTs with no limitations that I've come across yet.
As a bare minimum for coding VSTs in C++ you will need to understand upto and including pointers, and class hierarchy (polymorphism et all), dynamic memory management (possibly - depends what you want to do) - and obviously, all basic syntax such as operators, variable types (and there limits) imprecision, functions, parameters, returns - probably more, but these are essential, IMO.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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vegetal
Vegetal/Peacespect
Started Topics :
19
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1055
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 11:44
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Quote:
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On 2009-10-16 11:33, Speakafreaka wrote:
If you want to learn to code, my advice would be to learn C++ or Java, which are very similar syntactically.
There doesn't seem much sense to me to learn a less efficient language, unless it is particularly easier to learn. So, I'd say see how you get on with the more efficient language first - and if it is to hardcore, then try Delphi.
C++ has a bad reputation as being hardcore to learn - which it really isn't particularly - C, on the other hand is much harder, although still perfectly possible.
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from a personal perspective i learned C first then C++ then .net and Java, as for me i felt that knowing C is like learning to walk, c++ is to learn how to speak and so on
Demand recognition for the Armenian genocide 1915
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
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779
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 11:46
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^^ would completely agree - however, my course didn't offer C, although we were taught by a C coder, who went into it in quite a lot of depth, and I did study assembler code on a microprocessor board, which was a good 'learning to crawl' stage 
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
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655
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 11:50
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tried too, and can only say if ur not into coding stuff and want to learn from scratch, go ahead and learn from easy things like sonic birth (which allows to change and see the code if u like, if i remember right), synthedit or synthmaker (both dont offer this i think).
to get things rollin i tried max/msp and have to say it´s much more complex but again not that easy. but like that program, nice thing between.
for coding i cant say, this was too much for me so far. tried to code easy things but dont have time for coding next to music (would get too far for good plugins like zebra  ). same like mastering imo, u cant do all three things efficiently at one time.
cheers
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 16, 2009 12:02
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demoniac
Demoniac Insomniac
Started Topics :
85
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1281
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 18:34
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
601
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 19:48
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Quote:
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On 2009-10-16 09:48, Speakafreaka wrote:
http://vstnet.codeplex.com/ which allows you to develop in C# (basically badly coded M$ java) or any other .net language (for the love of everything, not VB.net, please)
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i'm not going to get into the c# vs. java argument, but the vb.net comment is totally silly. the difference between vb.net and c# is purely syntactical sugar (for the most part) and everything you can do in one, you can do in the other. everything gets compiled to Common Intermediate Language, so it makes very little difference whether you use vb.net, J#, IronPython, or any of the other 20 (or however many there are) .net languages. i worked with c# and loved curly brackets and semicolons and vb code looked annoying to me. now i work with vb and find looking at brackets and semicolons annoying. and if i had to go back to c#, i know for sure that after about a week, i would be again very comfortable with it. so it's all about your personal preference and what you are used to (at the moment).
but i agree with your other points. if i were going the hardcore coding route, i would pick c++.
i thought about getting into this too at some point, but like mandari said, there's simply not enough time for everything. i code at work enough as it is and i'd rather work on music, than code at home.
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hip
Shuma
Started Topics :
12
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404
Posted : Oct 16, 2009 19:53
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psylevation
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Oct 16, 2009 20:36
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I've learned C so far but I haven't gone beyond that yet. I was able to write and compile the Gain control from the VST SDK, I sat for about 5 minutes just turning the volume up and down going...yay I made a vst.
I've always wanted to learn more but I don't know if I have the motivation really, and I don't particularly want to go back to college again...maybe I'll learn C++ some other way...hmm..
Well good luck, it's a difficult path from what I understand, but as with anything, take small steps, keep going, and you'll get there eventually.
~Airyck~
~Unoccupied Mind ~
Psyowa! |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
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779
Posted : Oct 17, 2009 10:07
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actually Septa, I think you will find VB.net's lack of decent bitshifting (yes, I agree its possible, but a total PITA) will be of considerable issue in developing VSTs.
I do not claim to be an expert at all, if you are coding in it all day long, then you will know it better than me - and probably the entire .net suite.
The bottom line is, I don't know these languages particularly well, (although I can code in a good chunk of them) I was suggesting C# to someone who has some coding experience in java as an alternative route forwards. VB.net is an immeasurable improvement, but it still bears little similarity to any other language, and is therefore something I'd actually discourage people from learning - especially, as it is effectively redundant due to .net!
Personally, it'd be a cold day in hell before you saw me anywhere near either java or .net though - imo neither is suited to VST development as neither offers really, really explicit control.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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