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Listening & Hearing
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Beat Agency
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
53
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1752
Posted : Nov 14, 2010 01:03
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On 2010-11-13 22:46, Outolintu wrote:
are you refering to the replies of dopese and myself (the books i recommended have a zen approach among others to listening and hearing)? there is no debate (= a discussion involving opposing viewpoints)  i don't see our replies challenging somebody elses points of view. we're just broadening the perspective into _hearing_ and not just hearing music. and i bet it doesn't bother mr. lucid picnic one bit. i guess it's bringing a ISM into the discussion that ticked you off.
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Nothing "ticked me off" I just dont get why every debate has to end up in boom shankar religious mumbo jumbo 
  www.beatagency.dk |
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Bodhisattva
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
109
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1537
Posted : Nov 14, 2010 01:09
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On 2010-11-14 01:03, Beat Agency wrote:
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On 2010-11-13 22:46, Outolintu wrote:
are you refering to the replies of dopese and myself (the books i recommended have a zen approach among others to listening and hearing)? there is no debate (= a discussion involving opposing viewpoints) i don't see our replies challenging somebody elses points of view. we're just broadening the perspective into _hearing_ and not just hearing music. and i bet it doesn't bother mr. lucid picnic one bit. i guess it's bringing a ISM into the discussion that ticked you off.
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Nothing "ticked me off" I just dont get why every debate has to end up in boom shankar religious mumbo jumbo
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It's not mumbo jumbo at all in my opinion.
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Bodhisattva
IsraTrance Full Member
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109
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Posted : Nov 14, 2010 01:43
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On 2010-11-14 01:03, Beat Agency wrote:
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On 2010-11-13 22:46, Outolintu wrote:
are you refering to the replies of dopese and myself (the books i recommended have a zen approach among others to listening and hearing)? there is no debate (= a discussion involving opposing viewpoints) i don't see our replies challenging somebody elses points of view. we're just broadening the perspective into _hearing_ and not just hearing music. and i bet it doesn't bother mr. lucid picnic one bit. i guess it's bringing a ISM into the discussion that ticked you off.
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Nothing "ticked me off" I just dont get why every debate has to end up in boom shankar religious mumbo jumbo
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Also, the things Outolintu and Dopese are talking about got nothing to do with boom shankar. |
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Dopese
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
29
Posts :
298
Posted : Nov 14, 2010 11:38
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On 2010-11-13 12:43, Outolintu wrote:
i've read a couple of books by joachim-ernst berendt about the subject of hearing which i found the be real ear-openers 
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It's interesting that you mention Nada Brahma. I have the audio book on my cell phone for some time now, but didn't find the right moment yet to listen to it and nearly forgot to do.
So thanks for reminding me
http://my.opera.com/Dopese/ |
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lucidpicnic
Lucid Picnic
Started Topics :
132
Posts :
855
Posted : Nov 14, 2010 13:35
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Gunter
IsraTrance Full Member
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1465
Posted : Nov 14, 2010 16:35
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well some aspects of Zen (speaking about Za-Zen here) are very close to religion ... certain ceremonies b4 n after mediation, buddha statue etc. ... all this makes it less a philosophy more a religion for me .. but thats just imho.. maybe better Vipassana |
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lucidpicnic
Lucid Picnic
Started Topics :
132
Posts :
855
Posted : Nov 14, 2010 17:00
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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1477
Posted : Nov 14, 2010 21:24
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i think this topic turned into mumbo jumbo and boom shankar talk not sooner than page 2.
now that we're not talking about hearing anymore but zen and especially practicing za zen and the decor of a zendo i'll write a few lines about that. i'm not a zen practitioner but have been to some za zens some yars ago.
from what i've gathered the buddha statue symbolizes the possibility to reach enlightenment. one does not bow to a deity but a person who has succeeded in that holding in mind that it could be anybody (including yourself!). so i don't see there's actual worship of a specific person. i also don't see the connection between za zen practice where you sit or walk and try to silence your mind by counting, focusing on breathing or in later stages by trying to "break" koans (a nonsensical or paradoxical question to a student for which an answer is demanded, the stress of meditation on the question often being illuminating) and for example the basic religious act of praying to god, which is a means to get closer to a higher power (and usually for help).
"no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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Gunter
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 14, 2010 22:38
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Ya right, thanx. |
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Beat Agency
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 15, 2010 00:01
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Please enlighten me but what does this debate have to do with Zen Buddhism (religion/belief whatever)?
www.beatagency.dk |
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spatialize
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
59
Posted : Nov 15, 2010 07:04
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if you told a zen master that zen buddhism was a religion he would probably whack you round the head with his whacking stick. then again if you told him that zen was a philosophy that believed that enlightenment was possible right here, right now....he'd probably whack you round the head anyway.
it seems that any philosophy (or religion) that encourages someone to deeply encounter the present moment (listening to music or whatever activity) has something to bring to this sort of debate.
also lsd, according to aldous huxley, removes the thinking mind's filters to 'what is'. the same sort of end as mindfulness meditation.
anything that encourages us to hear music freshly as the complex interactions of vibrating frequencies of soundwaves instead of an analytical exercise has a place in a discussion like this. you could just as easily talk about zen or yoga, lsd, marijuana, gnosis or christian mysticism. although a deep practice that you can draw upon has to be more satisfying on a long term basis than an induced high.
i remember quite vividly being away from music for a long time in the wilds of northern scotland, and then listening to a rachmaninov piano concerto very loudly when i got home. i felt like i was experiencing music and it's accompanying emotions in a very clear way....and not just listening to it in a 'oh yeah this is nice but i prefer chopin' kind of way.
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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1477
Posted : Nov 15, 2010 11:41
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beat agency:
the discussion about hearing and listening turned into a debate about practicing zen because some members thought that it is ONE of MANY WAYS that
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On 2010-11-15 07:04, spatialize wrote:
encourage us to hear music freshly as the complex interactions of vibrating frequencies of soundwaves instead of an analytical exercise.
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what is YOUR way to "really listen" to something? it's obvious that you too are concerend about the matter. give us something to think about, some ideas of your own, concerning the original topic. spread the wealth, hmm?
"no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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Gunter
IsraTrance Full Member
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55
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1465
Posted : Nov 15, 2010 16:49
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Maybe it sounds too easy, but I would suggest to just listen. One should have the power over his own mind. Otherwise use technics: yoga, meditation, which is also Yoga seen from a certain perspective (I recommend Vipassana), extreme sport, sex, a walk through the nature, a drive in the car through the dark city, whatsoever ... also I recommend to not listen to too much music .... |
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TechMonkey
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
41
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985
Posted : Nov 15, 2010 17:05
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On 2010-10-25 02:01, spatialize wrote:
this an interesting correlation to music. bascialy our brains are nearly always in the way.
for instance when we are disappointed with the new album of an artist that we like, we are really only disappointed in time; as we are constantly referring it back and comparing it to our previous mental judgement of that music. or we're comparing it against some mental construction about how the music 'should' sound. so we're not really properly listening, we're comparing. if we could just hear what we're actually hearing. sometimes it takes a while for albums to sink in. this might be a case of our brains slowly letting go of what we were comparing the music to?
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Skipping the whole Zen discussion. I completely agree. I often find my expectations get in the way of my perceptions of what I'm listening to. Two things I do to combat this:
1. Put the music away for a few weeks and try to come back to it with an open mind. I may have to do this a few times before I start hearing the music for what it is and not what I expect it to be.
2. Leave the album on repeat in the car and in the background at my office.Eventually I stop actively listening, and I find more often than not that suddenly "I get it." after hearing it so many times. The next time I actively listen to it, it is a considerably different experience because (I think) I have given up my expectations and accept the music for what it is.
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Nov 15, 2010 22:41
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On 2010-11-15 16:49, Gunter wrote:
just listen
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On 2010-11-15 17:05, TechMonkey wrote:
1.come back to it with an open mind.
2.accept the music for what it is.
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ok guys, i thought you wanted to skip all that zen talk 
and i totally agree with all your points.
"no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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