| Author
|
Limiting on the master ?
|
aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
112
Posts :
1490
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 04:54
|
Quote:
| if you mix your track properly you won't need the limiter |
|
It depends on your starting levels and the headroom you leave... i start with kick at -11db or so... most of the time a limiter helps getting "commercial" level.
But hey, this is loudness war, there is A LOT, really a lot of talking about this everywhere but still industry standard is VERY LOUD tracks (-10 to -8db RMS or less)... yes yes, dynamics blah blah, yes yes perfect mix doesn't need shit and you must hire a mastering engineer instead of daring to limit your mix because Loudness Police will be knocking on your door when you least expect it. pfff
It is very subjective issue, depends on track, acoustics, artist, genre, subgenre, if it is for CD or playing live, etc... at the end is your choice, you just have to know all the available options to you and reasons for placing limiter or not.
One thing I can tell you is you have to experiment! With questions like this there is never a straight answer, everybody will talk from their perspective but i MUST encourage you and everyone to try for yourselves... how the f should one knows if something sounds good or not if you don't try.
Of course one can ask about common practices and personal preferences but there are no rules, and one of the keys to learning is experimentation.
I am not pro, i am no master engineer either but personally, i like loud tracks... and i have analysed a ton of my favourite tracks, many of which i consider to be very dynamic and yet loud not squashed pieces. Of course this is just my opinion and i could be wrong and im sure all of those tracks had proper mastering and not just an L2 on the master chan.
One thing i do know is... mixing with limiter ON is no good idea. Turn it ON for test renders but not when mixing since your perception would change dramatically.
|
|
|
Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
170
Posts :
3642
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 05:18
|
|
monno
Grapes Of Wrath
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
454
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 08:26
|
Fix it in the mix, not the master bus!
Please please please
For producers limiters and compressors are mostly tools for controlling the levels of individual tracks and not the overall level. Naturally there is nothing wrong with strapping on a limiter or compressor on the master to get a feel for the loudness potential of your music, but simply doing it to fix flaws that can be addressed on an individual basis is a no no. You easily run the risk of affecting other parts of your mix in a negative manner when trying to fix a mix solely in the end of the chain.
 Mastering available here:
http://www.bimmelim-soundlabs.com
http://soundcloud.com/onkeldunkel
http://www.myspace.com/onkeldunkelownz
http://www.parvati-records.com |
|
|
|
Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
170
Posts :
3642
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 08:52
|
What if you're really lazy though?
Hehe, glad to get a good response from you monno, I wanted to see what would be said in response to my comment.
Would a clear way to put it be that putting a limiter on the master will squash everything that is brought up in volume, not just the individual sound responsible, and thus lose dynamic in other sounds you didn't intend to be correct?
The subjective part about limiting to me is that everyone claims to want to get lots of dynamic out of their track, but what if the way you're using the limiter is intentional and the track still sounds good? By that metric it seems like using a limiter anywhere would be acceptable as long as it's the artist's intent. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
|
|
|
orgytime
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
120
Posts :
1703
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 09:45
|
for everyone who dont want to spend money for mastering its the way to go imo.
i also improved my mixing skills by trying to master my
own tracks... get izodope ozone, its a nice tool to get
some impressions. i bet everyone here, know some
techniques to "master" the tracks for some reasons.
i dont speak of mixing with a comp/limiter on the master.
sure, when you go more professional, a serious mastering is the way to go...
www.soundcloud.com/orgytime |
|
|
|
Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 10:30
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 08:26, monno wrote:
Fix it in the mix, not the master bus!
Please please please
For producers limiters and compressors are mostly tools for controlling the levels of individual tracks and not the overall level. Naturally there is nothing wrong with strapping on a limiter or compressor on the master to get a feel for the loudness potential of your music, but simply doing it to fix flaws that can be addressed on an individual basis is a no no. You easily run the risk of affecting other parts of your mix in a negative manner when trying to fix a mix solely in the end of the chain.
|
|
+1000
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
|
|
|
Xamanist
Xamanist
Started Topics :
49
Posts :
938
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 16:21
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 10:30, Upavas wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 08:26, monno wrote:
Fix it in the mix, not the master bus!
Please please please
For producers limiters and compressors are mostly tools for controlling the levels of individual tracks and not the overall level. Naturally there is nothing wrong with strapping on a limiter or compressor on the master to get a feel for the loudness potential of your music, but simply doing it to fix flaws that can be addressed on an individual basis is a no no. You easily run the risk of affecting other parts of your mix in a negative manner when trying to fix a mix solely in the end of the chain.
|
|
+1000
|
|
+1500*2000000 
Sérgio Xamanist
facebook.com/xamanist
soundcloud.com/xamanist |
|
|
|
Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 17:59
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 16:21, Xamanist wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 10:30, Upavas wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 08:26, monno wrote:
Fix it in the mix, not the master bus!
Please please please
For producers limiters and compressors are mostly tools for controlling the levels of individual tracks and not the overall level. Naturally there is nothing wrong with strapping on a limiter or compressor on the master to get a feel for the loudness potential of your music, but simply doing it to fix flaws that can be addressed on an individual basis is a no no. You easily run the risk of affecting other parts of your mix in a negative manner when trying to fix a mix solely in the end of the chain.
|
|
+1000
|
|
+1500*2000000
|
|
-0.1dBFS
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
|
|
|
daark
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
58
Posts :
1397
Posted : Dec 15, 2010 18:51
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 17:59, Colin OOOD wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 16:21, Xamanist wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 10:30, Upavas wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 08:26, monno wrote:
Fix it in the mix, not the master bus!
Please please please
For producers limiters and compressors are mostly tools for controlling the levels of individual tracks and not the overall level. Naturally there is nothing wrong with strapping on a limiter or compressor on the master to get a feel for the loudness potential of your music, but simply doing it to fix flaws that can be addressed on an individual basis is a no no. You easily run the risk of affecting other parts of your mix in a negative manner when trying to fix a mix solely in the end of the chain.
|
|
+1000
|
|
+1500*2000000
|
|
-0.1dBFS
|
|
-3db
http://soundcloud.com/magimix-1/chilling-forest-whispers
Wierd shit happens :) |
|
|
|
TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
80
Posts :
3207
Posted : Dec 16, 2010 01:58
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-12-15 02:35, Upavas wrote:
@ Time Traveller,
if you mix your track properly you won't need the limiter, it is the same when someone tells me ey, some 5k frequency is too lout in your e.g. lead, put a limiter on it. I would always choose to find the frequency that is too loud, and notch it out with an eq first, that way your overall mix will be a lot cleaner.
|
|
Upavas for sure,you're right! I just pointed out one can use it,it's not a crime when using/knowing how it works and when the mix is in green area even without limiter so to say.
Personaly I never used it in the mix.Greetings
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
|
|
|
Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Dec 16, 2010 02:37
|
|
daark
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
58
Posts :
1397
Posted : Dec 16, 2010 17:34
|
|
tHuJoN
Freakulizer / Khainz
Started Topics :
115
Posts :
932
Posted : Dec 16, 2010 17:44
|
|
PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Dec 16, 2010 21:33
|
yes agree it's not as precise for fine tuning things from my experience ,same with compression on the master , when i use some i always have to bypass them to check while tweaking.
but lot of sound enginneers are successfull with crazy chain on their master , like few compressors + limiter..in the end no rules imo , it have some advantage , it s possible to mix the track at the loudness it will be released.
|
|
|
|
monno
Grapes Of Wrath
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
454
Posted : Dec 17, 2010 04:17
|
@ascension
We have a saying here that loosely translated goes like this: Against lazyness even the gods fight in vain 
Not that it answers all questions about limiting and compression though. The key is understanding what these tools do to your audio.
Keywords would be proper monitoring, lots of listening and making loads of mistakes along the way. As long as those mistakes are taken to heart we´re already halfway there.
Limiting on peak material only is hardly detrimental to audio quality in any way (provided the limiter is a high grade one) The nasty stuff starts happening once the threshhold is moved well into the rms part of your mix.
When it comes to creating sound anything goes!!! but limiters, simple as they are, might easily be the least understood tool (along with compressors).
Best practice is to be conservative especially on the master bus. It really depends on the mix how much can be squeezed out of it using just limiting or compression. I rarely like to go beyond 3 db peak limiting as clever eq´ing and compression can up the apparent loudness without the limiter squashing everything into lego. (most tracks i get my hands on hardly have more than 6db dynamic range on average, so solely relying on limiting would not have the desired effect)
On individual tracks it is possible to apply much more heavy handed limiting before it will compromise the mix, so there is room for experimentation after all.
I have found limiters to be very good at controlling stray short transients (faster attack and release) and i generally use compression on stuff such as drums and bass where i can play around with a slower more natural volume attenuation.
Mastering available here:
http://www.bimmelim-soundlabs.com
http://soundcloud.com/onkeldunkel
http://www.myspace.com/onkeldunkelownz
http://www.parvati-records.com |
|
|
|
. Is a track that's limited down .5 db for a few milliseconds really that noticeable?