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Limiting methods at 0db
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Sep 23, 2006 18:45
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tsabeat, entirely agreed. I don't know which pros you are refering but the REAL pros say to stay below 0 dB FS at all times even if it is just for safety reasons.
The people on the list I mention are the people that really know. To give you an idea, the head of Phillips research is on there, the guy that designed the Sony Oxford R3 digital console and all the Sony plugins, head of commercial audio division at Cirrus Logic, Dan Lavry, Daniel Weiss etc.
These are the people I trust when discussing digital audio.
UnderTow |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Sep 23, 2006 22:39
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i ment for peaple like yuli (fu hsi) and some more artists that i like their sound (if im not mistake it charles from ticon? or from other good project). i dont need the guy history , inough for me listen to the soundz 
anyhow , i still think the best result is to work with no clips whatsoever , stay with the -2db peak and -15 -16 rms before mastering. from my album (just got copy f mastered version) i was happy with the tracks that their rms is -11 to -9 , the second it overlimited , i hear the distortions and lack of dynamic range , which in trance is 8 bit maximum - means you have 6X8 = 48db , and thats also just in fade ins and reverb tails , my lowest in volume usualy is the hihat which gets to -24 db. so realy its just 3 bits compressed later to 2 bits. as long you hear the bass pump correct and the breake gets the "freedom" from limiting, its probably not overcompressed imo
for sure , even lower volume is ok , not higher usualy.
 www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
104
Posts :
1047
Posted : Sep 24, 2006 04:26
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Iīd like to share my opinion here. Sorry for the long post... 
Two things looks important here: RMS level, and how much compressed it sounds.
I can tell u that for comercial psy trance(like Infected, Psycraft, Skazi, Astrix, Time Lock,...) the RMS level nowadays is around -10 to -7db. And indeed, it sounds very LOUD.(even agreeing with Jikkenteki about sound tiring, some of them sounds very good to me).
I have 3 tracks released, 2 with home mastering, and 1 with pro master. All of them have -10db of RMS, but no doubt about the quality(much more dynamics) of the pro one. Not only for the master, but cause its newer track. So u can see that RMS is not everything.
So get in mind that getting -10 db of RMS is a good START POINT.
An easy way to check(and also "make it louder to play") your track can be: Export your track with -3 db of peak(u may have to push the master output down/up). Now use a L2 with -0.1 db of output. Push the treshold till u get -4db of maximum attenuation(ATT). Now check if the RMS is loud enough.
ps:this -4 db of max att. I took this number after some research. Also some mastering engineers told me thatīs a good start. But itīs not magic. I saw some ppl using it at -7db and getting nice results for dancefloor.
If the RMS is not loud enough, U should fix the mix. If the RMS is ok, U also should fix the mix to get the best dynamics(so u can also push the RMS a little bit up). If u have -7db with a very complex track, I think u donīt need to read it. lol
So mixing is very important at this time! But itīs not everything...
Letīs say u think your bass is lacking of the "ohhmp". Should u eq/comp it? Or should u try to make a better patch for the synth? Here u see that mixing can be very close to creation.
My whole point is: thereīs no method. I think experience is my best advice here. Thereīre a lot of work to get nice sounding music. Overall I think can be usefull stick to 3 points at beggining:
1)Learn how to create sounds and to pick a good sample.
2)Learn how to eq/fx the sounds.
3)Learn how they sound mixed.
Limiters, compressors and all effects are there to be used. So abuse of your imagination, but also use your brain...
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Sep 24, 2006 05:36
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auch ! just realized something with paz analizer .. when changing preset , it shows diffrent results!
and i checked the one that shows the lowest RMS.. its like 3 more rms level in "fastest on your machine" preset what meens that i might like -13 db.. need to figure that out with others analizers (prolly will check with friends RME , which have some great meters)
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Nik
Error Corrective
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
142
Posted : Sep 25, 2006 12:25
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Yeah like I said the PAZ anlyser is rubbish and i think this is probably where all these dodgy RMS figures are coming from.
On my RME analyser average RMS is - 5/7db for the majority of trance music.
1-0-1-0-1-0-1-0-?-0-1 |
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The_Guardians_Of_Truth
Atma
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
379
Posted : Sep 25, 2006 12:46
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One of the best way to check your RMS it's in Sound Forge.
Export the full track, open it in Sound Forge, than open Tools and next, Statistics.
This one is more acurate ..and it shows you the RMS of entired track, or selection.
NEW ALBUM OUT SOON !!!
"ATMA - Music Revolution"
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Nik
Error Corrective
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
142
Posted : Sep 25, 2006 14:00
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Quote:
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On 2006-09-25 12:46, The_Guardians_Of_Truth wrote:
One of the best way to check your RMS it's in Sound Forge.
Export the full track, open it in Sound Forge, than open Tools and next, Statistics.
This one is more acurate ..and it shows you the RMS of entired track, or selection.
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Ok Im gonna try that. See if there is any discrepancies between the figures from SF and the figures on my analyser.
I recommend only testing on a selection of the track where the beat is in full swing - if doing on a whole track you would be including avergae RMS with intros/outros/breakdowns which I don't think we are talking about here...
1-0-1-0-1-0-1-0-?-0-1 |
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ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
104
Posts :
1047
Posted : Sep 26, 2006 23:04
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Just a note: all my RMS values comes from Wavelab. Itīs the blue meter...
As I can see analyzers diffres from each other... So my tip is to stick to only one. Even if it gets not perfect results, it can be used for comparison, wich is a nice tool for us.
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Sep 27, 2006 00:49
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Nik: Your RME software is giving you the right numbers. Those are AES-17 compliant as far as I know.
Most analyzers don't calculate things properly. Also RMS isn't a fixed value. It just means it takes the Root Mean Square but of what? The sample values or the reconstructed waveform values? What is the window size? With what weighting? etc.
Adobe Audition calculates things right (Check the 0dB FS = Sine wave" checkbox). SounForge gives a value that is 3 dB too low. Wavelab I havn't checked recently ...
This is the point I was trying to make earlier: If you measure with some analyzers and read 10 dB FS RMS power, you are actually at -7 dB FS which is VERY loud.
UnderTow |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Sep 27, 2006 02:17
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Fragletrollet
Fragletrollet
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
1748
Posted : Sep 27, 2006 03:12
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Very nice thread, going to watch this one closely.
Btw.: how can you make the volume-knobs in FL Studio show in -dB rather than % (percentage)? |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Sep 27, 2006 05:40
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drummel
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
50
Posted : Sep 27, 2006 17:32
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And if you did your tests and realized that the RMS level is too high (-7, -5) or too low (-30)?
How do you do to fix it? |
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Adrenal Mode
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
308
Posted : Sep 27, 2006 17:57
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Quote:
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On 2006-09-27 17:32, drummel wrote:
And if you did your tests and realized that the RMS level is too high (-7, -5) or too low (-30)?
How do you do to fix it?
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you can turn up the vol or lower it, and if you want to get more peaks level, just use a compressor.
Quote:
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On 2006-09-27 02:17, tsabeat wrote:
so anyone can answer what PAZ preset is equal to
RME ?
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Non of the presets is equal to the RME and never will cuz, PAZ calculates the signal from your sequencer(internal) and the RME calculates the signal from your sound card (external), so the nembers will allways be different.
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texmex
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
189
Posted : Sep 29, 2006 13:15
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adrenal mode, why would the numbers be different? If the paz calculates from the same bits that the rme uses then the result should be the same. I'd say it's more about the algorithm than the numbers, as UnderTow mentioned.
I'd even trust the software more because it can work on the bits as they are intended without extra layers. For example, what would happen if you playback the wav at -6db volume (accidently or not)?... And do you have to have the volume pumped up in the wave/driver mixer to make it work properly? |
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