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Limiting methods at 0db

Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle

Started Topics :  158
Posts :  5306
Posted : Sep 19, 2006 19:24
atma made the explain perfect

how do you know? use PAZ analizer , change the "peak" to "rms" and see the volume in the middle meter           www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
Sound Surgeon
Crater / Mish-kah

Started Topics :  250
Posts :  2244
Posted : Sep 19, 2006 19:40
Good info for me!
I havent released anything yet, but i always make my music up to 00db so it will sound perfect (for me) after i finish the track itself.
Is that headroom for mastering really needed?
Do artists like Infected or Shpongle make the same and make the final mix in -6\7 db and leave the master work for the engineers, or else they finish their track in 00db and it goes to the album like that?

Every piece of music is getting mastered?
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Sep 19, 2006 20:31
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 17:12, The_Guardians_Of_Truth wrote:
I guess many peoples makes confusions when it's about Db volumes !
Many peoples mistake the RMS level with Peack volume !!

So...Pavel said he learned in music school that the engineers mix the track at -10 db.
Yes this is true..but this is the finnal RMS level not the peack level.



No way. Pavel is entirely correct. Having peaks at -10 dB FS is more than reasonable. Having the RMS level at -10 dB is unreasonable before and even after mastering! Yes I know everyone wants to crush their music to death these days but even then, -10 dB RMS is very loud.

(Note that most meters show you the wrong levels. It is safe to assume that if you don't know what your meters are doing, they are showing 3 dB below the actual level which means that when you see -10 dB RMS it is actually -7 dB RMS which is ... crap).

Quote:

I don't think somebody can master a track who has the Peack level on -10 db, and not to get a lot of unwanted noise in the track..



Any mastering engineer can do this and levels much lower very easily. Think about it: If you record stuff at -20 dB RMS in a 24 bit system, that means that the digital noise floor is more or less 120 dB below the signal. Increase the final mix by 10 dB and the digital noise floor is at -110 dBs FS. CD shave about 96 dB of dynamic range.

Quote:

So when we talk about the "Headroom" in a track we talk about the Peack level, and when we talk about the overall volume of a track we talk about RMS.



Correct. And peaking at -10 dB FS is not a problem.

Quote:

After the mastering the volume should look like this:
1) peack level -0,1 db
2) Rms level -11, -10 db (but never more than -10 db)



Depending on your meters I would make that -14 to -12 dB FS RMS.

Quote:

I dunno if the ideea with Kick on -6db is 100 % good...because it depends of the music styles and of the kick sample you use...Some styles are more based on the kick sample...some are more focused on the bassline and the kick is not that loud and fat.



I would say start with your kick at -12 dB FS, turn up the monitoring volume and work like that. When the mix is finished you can easily increase the level. If you run out of headroom before the end of the mix, it is harder to lower the level without all sorts of technical considerations.

Of course, these are just guidelines. If you really know what you are doing, you can work differently but for anyone still learning (well we never stop learning but you know what I mean), keep your levels way down!

UnderTow
Pavel
Troll

Started Topics :  313
Posts :  8649
Posted : Sep 19, 2006 21:32
I was working with Analog VU, they have faster reaction and are more accurate than what you see on Cubase/Logic/ProTools.
I just can't see myself using limiters. I am very cautios with Compressors as they are. Over compressing only percussion loops and only to get a specific color that i like. I really enjoy a more wide dynamics in a track and prefer to use the compressor as least as possible. A limiter on the main output is a big no no for me. I don't say there is right and wrong. I do my thing the way i was taught and the way i found to suit me the best. I don't enjoy todays over compressed sound. It makes me paranoid after a while.           Everyone in the world is doing something without me
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Sep 19, 2006 22:43
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 21:32, Pavel wrote:
I was working with Analog VU, they have faster reaction and are more accurate than what you see on Cubase/Logic/ProTools.



Actually, they have much slower integration times. You have to be extra carefull because fast peaks can be missed by analogue VU meters.

UnderTow
orange
Fat Data

Started Topics :  154
Posts :  3918
Posted : Sep 19, 2006 23:24
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 22:43, UnderTow wrote:
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 21:32, Pavel wrote:
I was working with Analog VU, they have faster reaction and are more accurate than what you see on Cubase/Logic/ProTools.



Actually, they have much slower integration times. You have to be extra carefull because fast peaks can be missed by analogue VU meters.

UnderTow



i agre on that one!


orange           http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic
Ghost Host
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  27
Posts :  512
Posted : Sep 20, 2006 00:27
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 17:43, drummel wrote:
How do you know the overall volume (RMS level) of a track?


http://www.rogernicholsdigital.com/inspectorxl.htm

The_Guardians_Of_Truth
Atma

Started Topics :  16
Posts :  379
Posted : Sep 20, 2006 01:47
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 20:31, UnderTow wrote:
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 17:12, The_Guardians_Of_Truth wrote:
I guess many peoples makes confusions when it's about Db volumes !
Many peoples mistake the RMS level with Peack volume !!

So...Pavel said he learned in music school that the engineers mix the track at -10 db.
Yes this is true..but this is the finnal RMS level not the peack level.



No way. Pavel is entirely correct. Having peaks at -10 dB FS is more than reasonable. Having the RMS level at -10 dB is unreasonable before and even after mastering! Yes I know everyone wants to crush their music to death these days but even then, -10 dB RMS is very loud.

(Note that most meters show you the wrong levels. It is safe to assume that if you don't know what your meters are doing, they are showing 3 dB below the actual level which means that when you see -10 dB RMS it is actually -7 dB RMS which is ... crap).

Quote:

I don't think somebody can master a track who has the Peack level on -10 db, and not to get a lot of unwanted noise in the track..



Any mastering engineer can do this and levels much lower very easily. Think about it: If you record stuff at -20 dB RMS in a 24 bit system, that means that the digital noise floor is more or less 120 dB below the signal. Increase the final mix by 10 dB and the digital noise floor is at -110 dBs FS. CD shave about 96 dB of dynamic range.

Quote:

So when we talk about the "Headroom" in a track we talk about the Peack level, and when we talk about the overall volume of a track we talk about RMS.



Correct. And peaking at -10 dB FS is not a problem.

Quote:

After the mastering the volume should look like this:
1) peack level -0,1 db
2) Rms level -11, -10 db (but never more than -10 db)



Depending on your meters I would make that -14 to -12 dB FS RMS.

Quote:

I dunno if the ideea with Kick on -6db is 100 % good...because it depends of the music styles and of the kick sample you use...Some styles are more based on the kick sample...some are more focused on the bassline and the kick is not that loud and fat.



I would say start with your kick at -12 dB FS, turn up the monitoring volume and work like that. When the mix is finished you can easily increase the level. If you run out of headroom before the end of the mix, it is harder to lower the level without all sorts of technical considerations.

Of course, these are just guidelines. If you really know what you are doing, you can work differently but for anyone still learning (well we never stop learning but you know what I mean), keep your levels way down!

UnderTow



Well, i have no ideea from where you take all those informations...but i am really cujorious how many masterings u made ? or, have you ever done any mastering ?
I suggest you, more practics and less reading bullshits about music mastering !

And, if -10db RMS on the finnal mastering is too much, than 90 % of the sound engineers from the trance sceen are stupids, and all the "high quallity" israely artists sounds very bad and distorted....wich is INCORECT !!!!           NEW ALBUM OUT SOON !!!
"ATMA - Music Revolution"

www.myspace.com/atmastudio
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  12
Posts :  355
Posted : Sep 20, 2006 05:52
Take a look.
http://boole.org/gimastering/gimasteringmeanrms.jpg

RMS only governs how a song sounds relative to others. Mainly the idea there is to trick radio DJs and club DJs who are lazy into leaving the faders in the same place. If your song is louder, then it sounds louder than the last, making it sound a bit more powerful. This is what caused the loudness wars. Good DJs can pick up on this, and adjust faders appropriately. Also it helps if they have accurate monitoring. The actual loudness and power of a song relative to ITSELF has more to do with its own spectral balance and arragement than RMS.

The mean RMS of "Our Own Happiness" by rough and rush = -17dB. That's not loud at all. But crank the song, is it powerful? Yep.

That said, I like it loud.
Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle

Started Topics :  158
Posts :  5306
Posted : Sep 20, 2006 07:40
i still agree with atma , undertow - what u meen 3 db diffrence from what the meter show me ? u think PAZ analizer is like that ?           www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
Pavel
Troll

Started Topics :  313
Posts :  8649
Posted : Sep 20, 2006 19:58
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 22:43, UnderTow wrote:
Quote:

On 2006-09-19 21:32, Pavel wrote:
I was working with Analog VU, they have faster reaction and are more accurate than what you see on Cubase/Logic/ProTools.



Actually, they have much slower integration times. You have to be extra carefull because fast peaks can be missed by analogue VU meters.

UnderTow



I was mislead all the way.
*runs to the corner and cries out loud*           Everyone in the world is doing something without me
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Sep 20, 2006 20:23
.
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Sep 20, 2006 20:23
Quote:

On 2006-09-20 01:47, The_Guardians_Of_Truth wrote:
I suggest you, more practics and less reading bullshits about music mastering !



Aha! Ignorant fool.

UnderTow
Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki

Started Topics :  20
Posts :  356
Posted : Sep 21, 2006 06:33
Quote:

On 2006-09-20 01:47, The_Guardians_Of_Truth wrote:


Well, i have no ideea from where you take all those informations...but i am really cujorious how many masterings u made ? or, have you ever done any mastering ?
I suggest you, more practics and less reading bullshits about music mastering !

And, if -10db RMS on the finnal mastering is too much, than 90 % of the sound engineers from the trance sceen are stupids, and all the "high quallity" israely artists sounds very bad and distorted....wich is INCORECT !!!!




The truth of the matter is that the majority of "trance" mastering is rather poor in the overall world of mastering and just about any real mastering professional (that is people who actually make their living by doing mastering) will all say -10 db RMS is just bad over all.

The problem with tracks being crushed to -10 db rms doesn't nessecarily have anything to do with distortion (although it could be one by product of it) or sounding "bad" per se when you first put the track on. The problem is the pure lack of dynamics make it difficult to listen to for long periods of time, which is different from just "sounding bad". The brain subconsiously gets bored of the lack of dynamic variation and without ever thinking "oh this sounds bad" quite often the listener just ends up changing cds because they decide they want to listen to something else. This is possibly one reason breaks and sudden cuts in the kick/bass/ etc and filtering them in and out have become so common in trance now-a-days when they weren't in the past. These sort of production tricks add about the only real moments of dynamics to tracks that are otherwise pumping along are the same volume from start to finish.

In a different thread I recently did a bit of RMS checking on tracks old and new I listened to a lot and ones I don't and most of the ones that don't make it through my cd player very often anymore (even if I like the track sound-wise and musically) tended to be -11 db RMS or louder.           New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com
Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle

Started Topics :  158
Posts :  5306
Posted : Sep 21, 2006 17:09
well , if all made correct and also used expender (with diffrent settings from compression offcourse) it can revive your dynamic even with hard limiting at the end. the easy way is to check your lowest volume (such in break or something) and this shouldnt be very loud. if it does , its overcompressed. if its not , i believe as long you dont distort anything , its ok to limit more . also good reason to end your song with not over -2db peak .           www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
Trance Forum » » Forum  Production & Music Making - Limiting methods at 0db
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