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Less The Better / More the Better ???
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vox
Started Topics :
2
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114
Posted : May 19, 2005 13:57
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On 2005-05-18 18:11, Colin OOOD wrote:
Dithering is not bitdepth conversion. Given that the Waves plugin packs contain a dedicated dithering plugin, and that dithering is an explicit option on some plugins and not on others, I think it is highly unlikely that it is applied as a matter of course in every plugin. I haven't read the manual on this though so I might be wrong. Can anyone quote the documentation exactly and clarify this?
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i cannot clarify, but it is mostly unlikely. waves was/is some kind of an industry standard, and industry cannot allow multiple dithering to happen.
dithering is the process of adding low-level noise to virtually increase the dynamic range of the 16bit signal, and is, because of that, used only in plugins which are last in the mastering chain, such as limiters, compressors, multiband compressors, or as separate plugins if your favourite limiter does not have dithering.
  http://myspace.com/voxproject |
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WAVELOGIX
Wavelogix
Started Topics :
136
Posts :
1214
Posted : May 19, 2005 16:37
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On 2005-05-19 13:30, vox wrote:
and why does more plugins mean more audio bounces? what do you mean? i use cubase with tons of plugs, and it all works realtime.
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Wtf ? are u working on CRAY supercomputer ? haha .... im working on a 2.8ghz intel P4 pc and i surely have to start bouncing after i loaded 12-15 synths and around 30+
effects ...
respect .. chandan ! |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : May 19, 2005 18:49
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 21, 2005 16:31
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On 2005-05-19 18:49, Colin OOOD wrote:
Just to clarify...
Dither: The process of adding very low-level noise to a signal in order to increase the percieved resolution of that signal.
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Just another little clarification  , it is the _actual_ resolution that is increased. Not just the perceived resolution. 
UnderTow |
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vox
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
114
Posted : May 23, 2005 14:01
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On 2005-05-19 16:37, WAVELOGIX wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-05-19 13:30, vox wrote:
and why does more plugins mean more audio bounces? what do you mean? i use cubase with tons of plugs, and it all works realtime.
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Wtf ? are u working on CRAY supercomputer ? haha .... im working on a 2.8ghz intel P4 pc and i surely have to start bouncing after i loaded 12-15 synths and around 30+
effects ...
respect .. chandan !
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15 synths? 30+ effects? damn. are you sure you are not exaggerating a bit there? do you REALLY need ALL those effects? thank god you don't own a hardware studio, it would cost millions.
http://myspace.com/voxproject |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
101
Posts :
3239
Posted : May 23, 2005 14:39
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a virtual studio is also not that cheap...
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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vox
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
114
Posted : May 23, 2005 15:42
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On 2005-05-23 14:39, Trip- wrote:
a virtual studio is also not that cheap...
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ok, what't the price of a studio made of computer muzys or traction 1 (sequencer), kjaerhus classic series, retro delay, digitalfish, slimslowslider, bigtick plugs, nyquist eq(plugins), superwave p8, synth1, triangle2, muon tau, refx claw, crystal, linplug cm505, novakill synths, polyblit (synths)?
http://myspace.com/voxproject |
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WAVELOGIX
Wavelogix
Started Topics :
136
Posts :
1214
Posted : May 23, 2005 15:43
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thank god you don't own a hardware studio, it would cost millions.
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LMAO ! |
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Nik
Error Corrective
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
142
Posted : May 23, 2005 17:50
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On 2005-05-21 16:31, UnderTow wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-05-19 18:49, Colin OOOD wrote:
Just to clarify...
Dither: The process of adding very low-level noise to a signal in order to increase the percieved resolution of that signal.
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Just another little clarification , it is the _actual_ resolution that is increased. Not just the perceived resolution.
UnderTow
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as colin said earlier, dither is not bit depth conversion.
Colin's above explanation/clarification of dither is straight out of the textbook...
1-0-1-0-1-0-1-0-?-0-1 |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : May 24, 2005 00:09
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Nik: Then he is consulting the wrong textbook.
UnderTow |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : May 24, 2005 01:30
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15 synths? 30+ effects? damn. are you sure you are not exaggerating a bit there? do you REALLY need ALL those effects? thank god you don't own a hardware studio, it would cost millions.
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If you really think about it, that doesn't really seem as much as you would think. 30 effects on 15 instrument channels is only 2 on each channel... And that's not even counting about bus channels or any audio files that are being used...
Come to think of it.. I use a pretty large amount of instruments(not even counting the ones that have been bounced to audio and disabled) and sometimes I will put 6 or 7 different effects on the channel to get the results that I want.
Honestly it's a matter of taste. If you get the sounds you want with just the patch with no fx, more power to you. If you wanna put 30 fxs on there and it sounds good, that fine.
You just need to be aware of the capabilities of your computer...
Also if you really wish to avoid constantly bouncing audio, you could just use the fxs in a 3rd party audio editor.
It's really a matter of taste. I have people that refuse to bounce any songs because of the sound quality issue... but at the same time you can do a lot with audio files that you can't really do with just straight midi. And even the slight sound quality differential can be handled really easily with your audio editor.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : May 24, 2005 01:52
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ok, what't the price of a studio made of computer muzys or traction 1 (sequencer), kjaerhus classic series, retro delay, digitalfish, slimslowslider, bigtick plugs, nyquist eq(plugins), superwave p8, synth1, triangle2, muon tau, refx claw, crystal, linplug cm505, novakill synths, polyblit (synths)?
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What you just listed were some pretty good freeware, but bear in mind that not all freeware is going to sound the best and get you the results that you want. Sometimes you have to go with some of the commercial sofware as well...
And the Waves bundle is several thousand dollars. You've got many good vsts that are between 150 and 500 bucks... You get a few of these together and it starts to add up. So in the grand scheme of things, sure you could get a whole bunch of freeware that might be good or might not be, but it would be the equivalent of buying a bunch of cheap gear that you've never used before to play a live set with... Sure you could make it work, but at the same time do you really wanna chance it?
The goal of freeware is multifaceted... Those that do not have the capital for the big name commercial ones tend to use the freeware ones, and some freeware is better and even easier to use than some commercial plugins. But there are some that are buggy or don't sound that good, the most annoying part about software is sifting through the junk to get the ones that you really like using the most.
Just like gear shopping...
Not to knock any freeware at all, I definitely use a lot of freeware synths and fx, but at the same time I do have paid for ones that do the role that I need them to do. It really depends on the the user.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : May 24, 2005 03:31
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On 2005-05-24 00:09, UnderTow wrote:
Nik: Then he is consulting the wrong textbook.
UnderTow
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No textbook... but I stand by my use of the word 'perceived' as I don't think you can make 16-bit linear PCM audio (for example) actually contain more than 16-bits worth of data, and lets not forget that dither adds noise, not some signal derived from the original audio... you can sure as hell make it sound like it though.
But, as ever, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong...
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 24, 2005 04:14
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Aha! But such is the beauty of maths that you CAN actually have higher resolution than you would think with a particular word length. The best explanation accessible to non-specialists I have read is in Bob Katz' book "Mastering, the art and science". I'll try and recount it here:
Imagine you have an AD converter who's first bit (the LSB) gets triggered at +/- 1 volt. Imagine feeding it with a DC voltage of 0.25 volts. The LSB never gets triggered so you get a continuous stream of zeros coming out of the ADC.
Now imagine feeding this ADC with evenly distributed random noise that occasionaly passes +/- 1 volt. You get a stream of ones and zeros with an average value of 0.
Now mix the noise with the original 0.25 volt DC signal. You get a stream of ones and zeros with an average value of 0.25! Et voila! You now have a digital respresentation of that 0.25 volt DC signal mixed with noise. You have effectively increased the resolution of your ADC below the LSB.
This works with other signals than DC signals. This also works with any bit reduction system. Add the noise shaping to make it less obtrusive to our hearing and you have _actually_ increased the resolution. This is NOT just perception.
UnderTow
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Hayez
Started Topics :
8
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393
Posted : May 24, 2005 09:51
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I tend to agree with Colin, a 16 bit PCM dithered or not, is still 16 bit. the dithered sound has increased 'perceived' resolution, still if you converted 24 to 16 you'll get maybe 19 bit of 'perceived' resolution. also, I don't think it's possible to reverse the process, meaning you can't take the dithered 16 bit and convert it to actully match it's 'perceived' bit resolution, but I could be wrong too
"a new art came into my mind which only you can create, the Art of Noises, the logical consequence of your marvelous innovations." Russolo, 1913 |
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