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Kicks visual spectrum analyzes tips????
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : May 29, 2006 07:52
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I ve been reading some nice topics where people use the visual spectrum analyzer to know what s going on with kick sounds for instance...so my question is:
how can we take advantage o visual graphics analyzes to work on our kicks? I mean what do those spectrums can tell us? How can we know how ratio, attack or release compression affect those images? |
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shachar
Basic
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
402
Posted : May 29, 2006 10:44
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spectrum analayzet are used for general preference only. dont count on them 100%.
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : May 29, 2006 13:51
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I use a analyser from time to time to look the freq range of a mix or parts of a mix. But i never used it for looking at the freq range of a kick and i am not sure if it brings advantage.
For seeing the compressing u can also look at the wavefile and may shape the dynamics manually.
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : May 29, 2006 19:20
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Ok...so EYB, how do you perform looking those frequencies on those graphics? What kind of information about the dynamics shape do the spectrum analyzes gives to you?
I read a topic here where the guy was teaching how to create bass and kick together...and at the end, when he had done almost all, he showed a screen where the dynamics shape had a kind of hole..I mean that those waves were tight and at a certain point they were on a different shape...so he concluded that on that part, the music should be processed to correct that shape...so I d like to understabd better what kind of information can you have looking at spectrum analyzes..thanks..
obs: about the kicks - I asked about the kicks because people always show the kicks represented on waves forms in graphics. And I was messing aroung on sound forge to try to understand the relationship between the graphics and the kick sound. I don t know if I m wrong, but all kicks tuned higher had the waves tight and at the end they began getting more distant one from the others..and all low tuned had the waves more distant since the beggining. So I d like to know what kind of change on that graphic would it happen when you change compression parameters such as ratio, attack and release... |
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D-Alien
Oxidelic
Started Topics :
51
Posts :
619
Posted : May 29, 2006 22:15
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hei friend
sure spectrum analisis can tell u a lot. it can tell u if the side-chain compression u use between kick and bass is correct. if really the subtle part of a kick compress just the subtle part of the bass so that the same dont loose its "color". ...but! using the spectrum from soundforge... is just horrible. in this page: www.exactaudiocopy.de there is a freesoftware. dld it. install it. open it and enter in PROCESS WAV function (Ctrl+E) than give the closest zoom possible (the speed of the refreshment depends on your video card) and now the grafics looks Different! u can see very welol what is going on.
here I've posted an Image:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/deliankristoff/kikbas-spectrum.jpg
Spectrum analisis from the begining of one of great Mubali tracks...
I've marked u the kik and bass. Its so clear. First u see the clik. u can tell very well which frqs it ocupies. than comes the middle part. the Hit! and the last is the subbass. thats why a good structured kik will have all this 3 main parts of its body very well defined. it varies from kik to kik how exactly it looks, but all great kiks always have this 3 parts of their body present. U asked about how u can see if attack, decay, release comports. well its obvious in the grafics.  U shold know that in 145bpm 1/16 of a note needs about 20ms to reach the next sixteenth. (from great MIKE A tutorial!!) so, if u dont want that the subbass of the kik interfears with the notes of the bass, try to make the kik as short as u can. and at the final stage of the mastering of your track it will become it nesecary power from the last multiband compresor that is used to pump up the track. but u Do need a very well defined kik and bass notes, and thay Must not interfere, otherwise, saturation can occur. This can be resolved using sidechain compresison, a little EQing, and some litle stereo spread so that both can share the same frequancy range. LAter u see the bass notes too. u see just 3 of them cuz the first one has been eaten by the sidechain. the other notes are well defined, every note consist of 3 small peaks, they are because of the distrorted and very deep bass Mubali use here. in the other image u can see the same song from a smaller close up. u see very well what exactly the bass, the kik and all other sounds are doing, u can see the low cuts, the high cuts, the sidechain, compressions, the Eqlizing, and a lot more secrets we cannot percieve just by ears.
Sound:
www.myspace.com/oxidelic
www.myspace.com/setanicmusic
Image:
www.antumbra-studio.com |
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : May 30, 2006 06:22
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Hi D-Alien...man I was sure that spectrum analyzes could help a lot audio production cause graphics help men on most difficult situations in many different knowledge areas..but your help has been really great..I think more people should bring their experience to this topic, cause we re talknig about soung engineer stuff, wich could be the basic step to make us understand wich phisical laws are we messing up with while producing tracks...
I think I ve read Mike s tutorial or maybe someone elses, where was posted a practical kick and bass recording. I remember having read that we should care about when the kick ends not to meet where the bass begans, and this guy realized that the kick sample played on the first 1/4 bar was actually to long and seemed to invade the 2/4 bar in wich the bass first note was. So he adviced to reduce the kick s lenght(I don t know if this is the right word in english) to make kick and bass more natural and noticeble....
By the way, I remember that he talked about side chain in Cubase. but I don t know how to do it..I ve only used side chain on Reason...can you give me some help on that? Do I have to insert a fx channel and use the kick sends and the bass inuts? How do I do that? I dlded a software wich make that job called kickV3 but I wasn t sucessfull on making it work in cubase...thanks. |
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sonik_akb
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
221
Posted : May 30, 2006 20:48
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About compression (Sidechain):
http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/57069/forum/2
Try use the search on this forum, you will find a lot of amazing threads about that!
The following thread (First octave sine wave replacement for kicks: Is it worth it and why) has the Colin OOOD and br0d "matando a pau" (kicking the ass):
http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/38135/forum/2/start/0
From Colin OOOD:
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"I touch the cone to give me another perspective on the relative balance of kick and bass, and as a way of making sure there isn't too much ultra-low sub. For me, PERSONALLY, IMO, etc, etc, I feel the kick drum should be the most promient element of a trance track, and in the absence of a sub-bass unit or 15K PA system in my bedroom, I like to use as many methods as I can to make sure this is the case. Spectrum analysis, the meters on my mixer, touching the cones and, of course, listening through as many speakers as I can are all part of this."
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I was trying to find an old post of mine about the EQ on kicks... on somewhere... I really don't know where...
Anyway, a spectrum analyzer is a very important tool for mixing, not only your ears! Using this tool, you will be able to see graphically when the kick and bass are fighting each other for some frequency.
If you won't play live, I mean, if it's only remix version for the standart home-system, you should put a HPF around 40Hz (or 50Hz)on kick/bass tracks. A standart home-system isn't able to reproduce these freq.
Cut some dB on 60-110Hz on bass track (most important area for the kick) and then, cut some dB on 160-210HZ (most important area for the bass). Of course, there are other important freq for each one of them.
A GOOD spectrum analyzer will be able to show to you what you are tweaking on your EQ/compressor plug-in. Put a spectrum analyzer on each track (bass & kick).
A great tip is to use the Har-Bal EQ application. You can load a sound reference and the another one you wish modify. So, you will be able to copy (graphically!) the EQ curve from reference to your sound. I came up new kicks using this approach: I made some kicks on my synths (MKS80 & Supernova 2), put them through a lot of plug-ins (compressor, EQs, enhancers etc.) and finally, used some reference kicks from Astrix and Infected Mushroom on Har-Bal.
http://www.har-bal.com
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar04/articles/harbal.htm
hhttp://dqtrz.com/Files/Har-Bal_Mastering_Process.pdf
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D-Alien
Oxidelic
Started Topics :
51
Posts :
619
Posted : May 30, 2006 22:24
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sonik_akb
yeah man, all u say is correct. Its like playing tetris. too little space for 2 rough monsters, but if "rotated" right thay make the perfect harmony. 
@ ess765
dont put subass to your kik and bass. nothing below 40-50 or even 60Khz u need. there u have waves with very big amplitude and if they are too potent they saturate all the rest without actually hearing them...
use the example above, 60-110Khz for the kik, 160-200/300 Khz for the bass, and up u can even apply small stereo spreads (oposite for bass and kik) so that the sound-tetris is perfect.
Even if u see subbass presence in your favorite artists tracks its because of the final master. If u render/bounce your track with subbass it will be imposible to master it further...
Sound:
www.myspace.com/oxidelic
www.myspace.com/setanicmusic
Image:
www.antumbra-studio.com |
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : May 31, 2006 05:22
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Thank you a lot for so nice tips...as I said spectrum analyzes seem to be vey usefull on mixing/mastering evaluation..not only years.
Sonik akb, please tell me your relationship with music..I m from Rio de Janeiro and I ve been started my own trance projected to be released on the second semester of this year..about you software I ll try it..please tell me how do u use it? Inside a vst host like cubase or as stand alone?
D alien I ve just downloaded your 3D spectru analyzer and will try it soon, I d also like to know how do you perform using it? As stand alone or through vst host?
My last concern is..I m not sure if I can notice the sound processing like you ve been telling me, cause my studio is actually my room and it has no acoustic isolation, and I ve been useing KRK monitors RP6, wich have a 6,5" low speaker. A very experienced producer told me that we should always listen to trance music through some at least 10"low speakers monitors, cause it would reproduce those lows really accurated...so I ve performed a test with my monitors. I reproduced sine waves on real low freqs and tested to see wich freqs could I really listen or feel it s presence on my monitors. I used a special software wich I could wype and then reproduce ant freq I needed. So my monitors began making some noise on 30Hz and each time I raised the freqs I could listen to it more clearly. |
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sonik_akb
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
221
Posted : May 31, 2006 23:06
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Quote:
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On 2006-05-31 05:22, ess765 wrote:
Sonik akb, please tell me your relationship with music..I m from Rio de Janeiro and I ve been started my own trance projected to be released on the second semester of this year...
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I was born on Blumenau-SC, but I live/work in the middle of Amazon rain forrest (AM).
I'm trying to make something like Vibrasphere/Son Kite/Purple Haze mixed with Infected Mushroom (Coverting Vegetarians CD1 and mainly CD2). In this line, proggy-psy...
I have a lot of friends producing psy on Balneário Camburiú-SC.
My project's name: Nyagara
Take a look at my soundset on
http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/88521/forum/2
Making a second one: pitched percussive sounds a là Infected Mushroom style.
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On 2006-05-31 05:22, ess765 wrote:
I m not sure if I can notice the sound processing like you ve been telling me, cause my studio is actually my room and it has no acoustic isolation, and I ve been useing KRK monitors RP6, wich have a 6,5" low speaker. A very experienced producer told me that we should always listen to trance music through some at least 10"low speakers monitors, cause it would reproduce those lows really accurated...
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I don't know this KRK RP6 monitors, I use a Samson Resolv 65A (active monitor) - that Future Music magazine 175 (June 2006) said to be one of the best monitors in the 250-400 British pound range together with Event TR5. Some people like them, others not, anyway, I like the sound from them.
So, it's really better to get low speaker > 6.5", but I think you could make some great remixes using only your 6.5" low speaker. If you don't use a home speaker for mixing, so you are able to make that.
I don't use Cubase, I use Logic 5.5.1 running on Athlon 64 3200+. So, I use to get the Logic compressor (with side-chain) and Multipressor from Logic when I want to compress something.
Some few ago, Colin OOOD posted some interesting tips for using side-chain compression on Cubase. Search it!
I use a lot the Elemental Audio (now, Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.) Neodynium compressor and I really like it, mainly for my kicks.
SoNiK AkB
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