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Kickdrum low end problem
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Acintya
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
5
Posted : May 25, 2012 12:42:54
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hello everybody,
since a long time i always have the same problem with kickdrums for goa/psytrance.
i have a lot of cool kickdrums, done with different samples and mostly finetuned with pitch envelope and a little bit of amp envelope in NI battery 3. but very often the same problem occurs:
the attack of the kick totally lacks of low end, which is the result of the pitch envelope. but the pitch envelope makes this cool typical psytrance kick, so it is absolutely essential.
in the first milliseconds of the drumsound there is nearly no low end, it mostly comes in at the end of the kicksound. what i am searching for is a consistent low end of the kick which sounds equal from first millisecond until the end. when i use sub bass synthesizers like waves maxx bass or other low end effects, they only react to the last 2/3 of the signal, and they only amplify the low end which is already there.
what i have tried until now, but didn´t get the result i´m searching for:
all the sub bass enhancers like waves maxx bass (problem is they only react to the second part of the kick after the thin first milliseconds of the signals), i also copied the kick and lowpassed it, took it some milliseconds before the main kick happens so that i get the low end at the first milliseconds and mixed it slightly to the main kick. this has interesting results but is not totally pleasing.
the same thing is with this classical "mix it with a 50 hz sinewave thing", which is slightly mixed to the main kick - it sounds too different and does not fusion perfectly with the main kick, even if i alter the frequency.
the problem with compressors is, that when i compress the kick so that it triggers the subbass effects already at the first milliseconds, then the kick sounds to squashed and totally different from original with too much attack.
one idea could be to trigger these plugins so that they play the subbass at the first milliseconds of the kick, but how could this be done in cubase 5?
another question: what do you use for millisecond timings especially with hold and release for psystrance kick drums? at tempo 144/146 bpm i mostly use about 130 milliseconds of hold and ca. 50 milliseconds of release time. even for bass/kickdrum sidechain compression 130 milliseconds seems a good value for the compressor release time.
the professional acts mostly have a totally tight kick with nearly no release but a perfect hold of the low end which sounds exactly equal from first to last millisecond of the kick.
andy ideas how the dynamical progression of the low end could be more linear? all compression things flatten the whole sound too much and steal the low end too much. they also alter the sound of the kick drum too much.
i´m really looking forward to your ideas....
peace,
martin of acintya
  soundcloud.com/acintya
soundcloud.com/return-to-gaia
soundcloud.com/atomized-psytrance |
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demoniac
Demoniac Insomniac
Started Topics :
85
Posts :
1281
Posted : May 25, 2012 12:59
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
80
Posts :
3207
Posted : May 25, 2012 13:24
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180 msecs for 144bpm is almost an eight note at that pace. Don't forget to sidechain it could sound more dynamical. If the whole kick is 130 ms at 144 bpm you'd still need sc - atleast if there is a tripplet bass inbetween the kicks.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : May 25, 2012 14:17
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Its all in the pitch envelope.
If you want the decay of the pitch envelope to be slow enough so that you can actually hear it sweeping (ala old goa kicks) then you will lack bottom end at the transient.
Ways to go around this is to mix another oscillator from your drum synth with a much tighter, 808 like envelope, enough so that you have some bottom end information right after the transient.
Be aware that things need to be in tune. Mixing a 50hz sine wave means all sorts of problems to, say, an E1 kick that is tuned at 41.2 Hz.
Other than that if you don't want that old sweeping goa kick, you can get perfectly "full" kicks using tight decay pitch envelope and a single oscillator.
Peace out.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : May 25, 2012 16:03
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imo dont look for plugins like maxbass,rbass or processing but try to tweak it with the source, with the way you synthetize kicks or with layering. |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
Posts :
3394
Posted : May 25, 2012 20:08
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Quote:
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On 2012-05-25 16:03, PoM wrote:
imo dont look for plugins like maxbass,rbass or processing but try to tweak it with the source, with the way you synthetize kicks or with layering.
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+1
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back |
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Acintya
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
5
Posted : May 26, 2012 16:51
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Thanks dir Spur I
Thanks for your Ideas. I use samples in battery 3 with amp & pitch envelopes. I think more accurate layering and more having an eye to the tuning of the layered samples together with precise milliseconds hold/decay envelope could solve the problem. i will check this in the next days!
soundcloud.com/acintya
soundcloud.com/return-to-gaia
soundcloud.com/atomized-psytrance |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
Posts :
3394
Posted : May 26, 2012 18:01
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i donno about layering. i dont like layering kicks, why mess with all that low end phase.
if you do layer, the second layer should consist of just a snap/click and nothing else.
but imo just get a good solid pitch drop clean it a bit with eq/compressors and thats it.
in this case i am all for "simple works best".
either with a synth with a fast punchy envelope or in a wave editor.
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back |
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snowdogg
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
17
Posts :
482
Posted : May 26, 2012 21:59
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maby try a transient shaper to help bring out the click |
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Alien Bug
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
682
Posted : May 27, 2012 00:59
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minddoctorsmakeacid
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
74
Posts :
577
Posted : May 27, 2012 23:24
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : May 28, 2012 00:07
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Padmapani
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
431
Posted : May 28, 2012 03:04
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thanks @nectarios for suggesting ultrabeat for kicks a while ago. i tried it and got great results  |
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makus
Overdream
Started Topics :
82
Posts :
3087
Posted : May 28, 2012 09:40
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dj chichke
Chichke
Started Topics :
83
Posts :
705
Posted : May 28, 2012 16:35
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