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kick tune discussion
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sly
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
183
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 16:42
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sorry mandari, i think you're confusing people a bit. the classical psykick is a PITCHED sinewave. sinewave only covers one exact frequency, in case of kick this is mostly around 50 hz. without a pitch you only hear or more feel a terrible humming with no attack part. now routing a very fast envelope to the pitch of the sine makes it falling over octaves in milliseconds. this leads to the regular click and boom.
using very fast envelopes from 10-20ms means the kick sits on his root freq after this time. like this the sine has still about 80ms to boom unpitched. this leads to a tiny click and heavy subs. it's very important to bring them in harmony with your bassline. i.e. kindzdza often uses very short attack time.
if you make the envelope longer it enhances the mid freqs. it sounds more knocky. principally you can take a 20 hz sine wave and make the pitch-envelope longer than the kick itself. like this the root freq won't be reached and doesn't exist anymore as a matter of fact.
most kicks are something in between. that makes it adviceable to use your ears. it's like elad said, minor shifts can make big changes.
if using samples i like to use an envelope on the pitch too, but only over semitones. everything just by ear cause the native pitch-envelope of the kick can't be changed anymore. also sampled kicks have been processed quite drastically. cause i don't know eq, comp, dist settings it makes no sense to think too much.
if making own kicks i mostly use ultrabeat (sine + pitch-envelope) or even easier bazzism. this is nothing else than a sine generator with good pitch control.
another way is the resokick synths can make without an osc. didn't use a long time, i guess reso full up and fast envelope on a lp-filter. works pretty well with es-1. i think this is the method mandari is talking about.
also possible is to layer a sine with a hi-passed clicky kick. for technoid stuff you can also use a squarewave.
dear mandary, if making good kicks with blue it would be much more interesting how you process your kicks. a kick with sinewave and pitch or generating a resokick by filter can do everyone and you won't be able to tell the difference between a pro pitched sine and a noob pitched sine (without bassline of course). not many options. but equalizing, compressing, gating, distorting and probably other treatment is not that easy. this is why people use samples (me included sometimes).
on the subject of tuning: just do if it sounds good, if not tune your bassline. but i have my own opinion about tuning to bpm. completely useless. NOT meaning lfo, envelopes, reverbs, delays and stuff. here it can be very important. big difference is that we are handling time here an not tunes.
but i stop now. i once got in an absolute sensless argument concerning exactly this subject. i won't do again. by the way, where has shamantrixx gone?
peace
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sly
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
183
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 16:51
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On 2009-03-25 01:51:49, jizy wrote:
hi there again, rite ive heard that kick must be tune at the same note as bassline, well i just spent half anhour tryin to tune them together on E1 i got better results makin the kick at note F.
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funny to read  i was struggeling with that f***ing semitone also when trying to make kick and bass exactly the same tune. than i stopped thinking and used my ears.
please tell me if you find out why... |
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~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 17:14
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Thanks sly, you explained very well.
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jizy
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
90
Posts :
1493
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 18:17
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thanks for all your posts! alot of helpfull info.
nice one
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
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655
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 18:47
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hell yeah, much better than my some newb opinion. =D
sorry, didn´t want to confuse someone ....
btw, dear sly, it was not the treatment we where talkin about,..........and how to process your kick is just a thing what u prefer. but don´t wanna drama around that on now, there´s nothing left, nice explainition (?). thanks a lot |
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~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 18:51
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Your help was just as welcome Mandari.
It has been interesting read so far. I have made my first Psy kick I will post it up. |
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
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Posts :
655
Posted : Mar 25, 2009 18:53
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thanks bro .... anytime again |
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sly
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
183
Posted : Mar 26, 2009 21:23
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nice words. thx a lot.
@ mandari: really no offense meant. everyone is happy about the help, opinion and experience of others. and i don't say you are wrong, maybe you make much better kicks than i do. i just had the feeling you are talking at cross-purposes in a way. both were right. kicks are mainly made of a pure sine AND are pitched too.
i know it was not about the processing. i honestly advice you to get bazzism, it's great. when using it you are able to make any sort of kicks but you will remark soon that it's a big difference between bazz-kicks and samples/pro-kicks. and this has nothing to do with the sine. i woold be very happy if i really understood how to process kicks in a good way. i always have to mess up for a long time and even if sounds good i can't get the logic behind....
peace and love to everyone and also a fat kick of course |
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jizy
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
90
Posts :
1493
Posted : Mar 26, 2009 21:26
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well im greatfull i started this thread
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orbit
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
108
Posted : Mar 27, 2009 01:30
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Quote:
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On 2009-03-25 10:44, Tomos wrote:
Quote:
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On 2009-03-25 06:54, orbit wrote:
hey mate,
also another great trick thanks to mr protoculture, (ive tried it and works really well), is to load your kick as audio and then pitchshift setting the max/min shift @ 3 semitones. now shortly after the initial click drop the sub energy down with an added point on the envelope within the pitchshift. btw i do this in cubase.
try it out.
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Got a screen shot of this? I'm not quite sure what you mean. On the audio > process > pitch shift option in cubase?
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thats it buddy, then just set that limit on the bottom left to 3 semi-tones and then make a point on the envelope and drag it down, get the click you want. ill do a screen shot if you still need it man. |
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jizy
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Mar 27, 2009 01:45
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screenshot il be cool, im a bazzism fan tho, but im open minded
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
655
Posted : Mar 27, 2009 17:59
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Quote:
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On 2009-03-26 21:23, sly wrote:
nice words. thx a lot.
@ mandari: really no offense meant. everyone is happy about the help, opinion and experience of others. and i don't say you are wrong, maybe you make much better kicks than i do. i just had the feeling you are talking at cross-purposes in a way. both were right. kicks are mainly made of a pure sine AND are pitched too.
i know it was not about the processing. i honestly advice you to get bazzism, it's great. when using it you are able to make any sort of kicks but you will remark soon that it's a big difference between bazz-kicks and samples/pro-kicks. and this has nothing to do with the sine. i woold be very happy if i really understood how to process kicks in a good way. i always have to mess up for a long time and even if sounds good i can't get the logic behind....
peace and love to everyone and also a fat kick of course
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nahh, no drama bro no worrys donno about better or less kickdrum, dont wanna mess around bout stuff like that. only improtant is that it fits your rest of the track and most important with the bass =D=D i´m pretty satisfied when i got that finished my taste
anyway also have to thank u, cause sure was a much better description, even if i think we were talkin bout the same i now really better understand..... there was nothing missing i think
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Mar 27, 2009 18:22
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Im still refusing to use sampled kicks and trying to perfect my own. have learned a lot of things in the process, so much to go back to our first LP (after having a nice chat with Colin who mastered it) and change most of the kicks.
basicaly what I thought was a tuned kick at first, was not since the amp envelope was shorter in release than the pitch envelope which resulted in the sine wave not having enough time to land on the sustain pitch (which was the bassline's root note). some of them did end in notes slightly higher than the bassline's root frequency and that sounded fine (to my ears anyway). Then had a go at sorting out the envelopes so that I did end up with a tuned kick and that sounded fine as well. but in some cases I did end up with a kick that was tuned in some note that was higher than the bassline's root frequency, although sounded better than the kick that was tuned.
all the thoery behind everything makes sense, but sometimes, just listening without getting anal about the hz that parameters show on thescreen, makes tunes sound better.
back to digging further into Ultrabeat now
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Tribute
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posts :
157
Posted : Mar 27, 2009 19:00
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Nice thread in here.
Im also a Bazzism(2) fan =)
But the kicks are unprocessed.
What are you have in chain for processing kicks? do you hipass them? compress them?
A little hint and tip here and there and im happy have a nice weekend |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Mar 27, 2009 19:10
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hi-pass and EQ before the compressor. Unless I am adding some high mid to add presence, I only apply subtractive EQ to my kick drums. edit: actually that is a lie, I have used Ultrabeat's EQ to slightly boost a somewhat narrow band in the bottom end.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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