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Kick - Pop & Click :)
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JeSuS
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
115
Posted : Aug 3, 2004 11:21
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Hi creators! 
my Question is simple:
1. Where (frequency) is the pop in kick
2. Where (frequency) is the click in kick
Yes! Every kick have they own frequency response.
But human ear ( brain ?) have ONE frequency response
And what i need to understand:
Is click reside on particular frequency (for example 500Hz) or they can be anywhere in spectrum?
All we know that when you break any sample you can get click... Where this click reside?
Does it depend on sample? oR not?
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Sektor666
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
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439
Posted : Aug 3, 2004 11:37
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Of course every sample have it's own "click" , you should search for it from 1000hz above 4000hz from my expirience , don't know if human ear is same each to each and one frequency you mentioned but whatever you know.
When you cut sample there is no natural click it is just frequency and volume jump at cut point because of wrong structure which is not controleble in compare to natural click .
By pop you mean low of kick drum or other ? if pop is bass so it is from 60hz - 200hz once again depends on sample itself .
Where this click reside ? get cheapest frequency analyzer and watch your unnatural click there .
Your question is like : I have a car and it always broken , do you have the same situation ?
Click do not "reside" on special frequency it "reside" on group of frequencies while you should watch for it's highest peak and increase by EQ .
Hope it helped Jesus , don't walk on the water ! |
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JeSuS
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
115
Posted : Aug 3, 2004 12:47
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Tnx!
What is "natural" click?
Do i get it from extremely pitch envelope?
Yes! By pop i mean low of kick drum.
about spectrum analyzer's...
I'm use Waves PAZ Analyzer.
I'm note that though they show me very wide
amplitude range (from 0dB to -80dB) , usable range amplitude from 0 to 35-40...
am i right?
How to find prominent frequency?
How to closely fit each instrument?
do i need find frequency with lower loudness?
My car realy ALWAYS BROKEN! Becouse this is
RUSSIAN CAR!
You can make it normal only for a few days
Then... it happens...
Don't buy a russian car!
So why not to walk?
My father help my! if i ask
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Amygdala
Amygdala
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
175
Posted : Aug 3, 2004 13:11
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The click you get from cuting samples badly theoretically has ALL frequencies... Only theoretically, since we're talking digtal stuff. That they fill such a wide range of frequencies is easy to accept, since they don't have to be very loud before we hear (and hate) them
The pop (I usually call it umph ) of a kick is usually around 125 Hz - that's the frequency that is best "felt" as a punch in the chest on a big speaker setup. I don't know about clicks, since they determine the sound of the kick - that makes them VERY different from each other.
A normal spectrum analyzer wont give you any specific details, only approximate measurements - like for instance "there is a lot of energy between 100 and 200 Hz". For determining the frequencies precisely, you need specialized programs like pitch extractors and stuff. I wrote one once myself, but it only runs on mac, and it's very "static" (commandline, wave-file analysis only) - and then gives a list of 8192 frequencies intervals (again, not very precise) and the energy distribution... Very geeky
- A |
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JeSuS
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
115
Posted : Aug 3, 2004 13:29
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am i hear click only becouse it's very
short (in time), or not?
Yes! Umph will be better
Kick - umph & click good!
If spectrum analyzer can't get my specific details, why to talk about 125Hz?
If i can't really see what happens?
does it for synth parameters? Like cutoff for
example?
SoundForge have Spectrum Analyzer that show prominent frequency. But i'dont belive it...
Probably i mess 
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Aug 3, 2004 16:03
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" am i hear click only becouse it's very
short (in time), or not? "
partially because it's very short and partially because it contains high frequencies.,
a fast amplitude change (like a click) means there are a lot of high frequencies for a very short time.
what's interesting is that low frequencies cannot exist in a very short time.,!!
so any short sound is only high frequencies., !
you need to see it this way:
to get a sharp edge in the amplitude of a waveform you need high frequencies.,
like the waveforms in a synthesizer with a sharp edge (like a square wave or a saw wave) have a lot of high frequencies.,
so to make a click (which is a sudden and fast change in amplitude) you need a lot of high frequencies.,!
and they need to be short., realy realy short.,
"If spectrum analyzer can't get my specific details, why to talk about 125Hz? "
you dont need a spectrum analyzer to get something at 125hz ., you can use a sythesizer, you can use EQ's and you can use your ears.,..,
also, you dont need to put it EXACTLY at 125Hz.,
you need to find the place that fits the best with your track.,
so,if you make a sine sweep (a sine oscilator with an envelope on the pitch that goes from high to low in a short time) you can use an EQ to make certain frequencies louder or softer.,
this way you have total control over what frequencies will remain.,
so you could eq everything in the middle to be less loud and boost freqencies around 125hz and above 1khz or so., depends on what you start with and what you want to end up with.,
that's the basic idea., make a sine sweep and eq it., then apply dynamics and stuff.,
"SoundForge have Spectrum Analyzer that show prominent frequency. But i'dont belive it... "
good !!., frequency analyzers have an inherently bad time resolution for low frequencies.,
use it to get an overall look of your spectrum but dont use it to create sounds.,
it might help you identify problematic area's .,
but it does not show you a good representation of what you are hearing., hearing is a psychological process as much as a physical one.,
so trust your ears before you trust a frequency analyser!/.
greets.,
aka., |
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JeSuS
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
115
Posted : Aug 3, 2004 16:51
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"what's interesting is that low frequencies cannot exist in a very short time"
VERY VERY INTERESTING!!!!
it's mean that we have different speed of reaction for low and high frequencies.
BUT!
We have inversely speed of reaction for apmlitude!
We can hear differency more precisely in low...
Endless universe!
ok!
i think everyone know about how to make kick in forge
Which part of pitch bend envelope responsible
for umph and for click?
"you dont need a spectrum analyzer to get something at 125hz ., you can use a sythesizer, you can use EQ's and you can use your ears"
Unfortunately i have nothing in my ear that
can say me what frequency i hear
I hear only umph and click
i can't use synth - becouse of complex controls - and MANY of this can change
umph and click.
For example cutoff can be roughly what i search. But when i change amount of modulation envelope (cutoff) i move frequency high... But how many?
I just wanna clear understand theory - in Sektor666 words now i'am technican
In final words - i always use and trust my ears. Becouse they have direct communication with my "brain - soul - father" ):) And do all things not for Spectrum Analyzers
But different people - different brains
How to sound good not only for my brain ?
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Aug 3, 2004 17:47
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"We can hear differency more precisely in low... "
what do you mean by difference ?.,
i hear a lot LESS details in the low,
that is why i find it much more difficult to mix the low than higher sounds.,
"Which part of pitch bend envelope responsible
for umph and for click? "
the first part (where the pitch is high and the playback speed is also high) is the click.,
the oompf is the last part.,
the part inbetween is a bit vague., it's in the 300~800hz range (approximately)., here sound has both a little of the oompfyness and a little clickyness.,
if you cut this range a little you will hear more click and more oompf.,
"Unfortunately i have nothing in my ear that
can say me what frequency i hear "
you can use your ears to compare i to a 125Hz tone.,.,
"I hear only umph and click "
that's good! 
"i can't use synth - becouse of complex controls - and MANY of this can change
umph and click. "
you need to develop skills for doing this.,
you will need to do these things instinctively.,
only experience will teach you this.,
you can listen to different sounds at around 125Hz and hear how they sound.,
then you will learn how 125Hz sounds and you will know what frequencies you are looking for.,
also, you can use eq's to learn how certain frequencies sound,.
to be honest, when i make a kick i NEVER go for a certain frequency.,
i only lisen to how the sound behaves.,
from experience i learned that when i think there is a good oomph in the kick i boosted it somewhere between 100 and 200Hz.,
sometimes it can be 60Hz too., realy depends on your starting material.,
but i never start by boosting 125Hz or something because it's a 'good frequency' .,
i think most people don't do this .,
"I just wanna clear understand theory"
the theory is that any sharp sound (like a click or a hihat) has high frequencies.,
an oomph wil have low frequencies.,
between these areas are frequencies that have a little of both characteristics., (but no characteristic is very strong)
"In final words - i always use and trust my ears. Becouse they have direct communication with my "brain - soul - father" ):) And do all things not for Spectrum Analyzers
But different people - different brains
How to sound good not only for my brain ? "
aah, you are asking us how to make good music
it's more about experience than about frequencies i think.,
getting a good sound depends on everything.,
your tools
your skills
your knowledge
your experience.,
your talent
your creativity.,
wether a kick sounds good or not also depends on the *context* a lot., sometimes a sound that is horrible in solo can be wonderfull in a mix!.,
so that is why it is almost impossible to say "you need to use this frequency" .,
basically there is no right frequency., there is only context.,
greets
aka., |
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JeSuS
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
115
Posted : Aug 4, 2004 10:58
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Thnx!!!
"what do you mean by difference ?.,
i hear a lot LESS details in the low"
I mean 100-200Hz drasticaly change in tone...
3000-3100Hz not...
"you can use your ears to compare i to a 125Hz tone"
Will be listen pure sine waves!
"aah, you are asking us how to make good music"
NO! good music for one - bad for other
I asking how to mix properly...
And think - use my ears!
Forget about Analyzers
If i can't hear mistake - how i can correct it?
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
90
Posts :
2268
Posted : Aug 4, 2004 12:38
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a few things to know when EQing a kick:
1) it is better to find a kick that you do not need to EQ than EQing one that you already have.
2) application of a compressor over a bassdrum that has went through an EQ can (and usually will) drastically change the EQ you just carefully did. The only EQ which will remain basically untouched are frequencies that have been drastically cut.
3) Kicks generally start at the highest pitch and go to the lowest one at the end. A kick with a slow transition between frequencies is very hard to EQ correctly, as it will either saturate your midrange or have a low volume between the click and the actual bass - or the worst case, will just not sound on beat. This is also a weakness of analyzers, as they don't know how to show you the (very) different EQs of the treble and bass parts of the kick.
4) Using the EQ to 'clean' up a kick applying a compressor will tend to give you a very subby kick, make sure you don't overdo that. Leave a short attack if you want the click in the beginning, but if you set it for too long, your compressor will lose it's effectivity in the volume gain.
5) The kick could be anything, depending on what music you want to make. If you want to make full-on, just try making it sound like an standard psytrance kick and work on fitting it with a rolling bassline when applying an EQ and a compressor it. There have been other posts in this forum about bassdrums and EQing. Use the search for some more detials.
 http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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