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Kick compression in details
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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169
Posted : Jul 28, 2006 00:58
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I ve read all posts about kick compression. Lot s of misunderstood questions and answers. My point is: let s talk about the basic options we have here to acheive a strong pumping kick sound.
Any compressor will have basic and comum comands such as threshold, ratio, atack, release, soft knee, input and output volume. This discussion is ahead any explanation of each comand. I mean, it s for people that already know what each of one them does to the sound.
I imagine the kick sound wave itself as an enrgy runing in cycle. The compressor, let s say in those terms, squeezes the amplitude of the wave quickly or not depending on atack setting and release it back to norma fazt or slow depending on release setting. I wonder how can we pump the kick...by making this energy run like a bulet inside a gun that has a very powerful ignition and then comes back to pump again as many times we need.. so should it be a quick atack and slow relase? vice versa? How can we make a kick pump through compression??
The question is:
Do you always compress kick? why and how?
when and why to use fast/slow release and atack on kick?
when and why to use high threshold with high ratio or low thershold with low ratio?
How do we achieve that really powerfull pumping kick that pushes us when we are in front of the club speakers. |
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Freakuency
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jul 28, 2006 09:57
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In professional productions, kicks alone might not sound very good, but works great 2gether with bass. So my point is, whenever u try to achieve the right sound u need to work with both. Eq is your friend!
Now back to your topic. To avoid any confussions, I think I should mention that the attack and release times of a compressor DO NOT depend on your track's BPM. Usually when we compress kick in psy trance we want to preserve the click sound and have some musical woof at the bottom. Therefore, we need to use as fastest attack as possible without affecting the click that resides approx. at 3khz. To get a nice woof u certainly need to play with release control, once u find a good release time u'll feel that the bottom is moving along with the entire mix.
To achieve a gud sound you need some gud monitors or years of experience. Usually a combination of both works best...
have fun |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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8087
Posted : Jul 28, 2006 13:35
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i think you don t need compression at all,it s not a magic tool,some artists never use compression during the mixing stage and they sound crystal clear. |
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Tiken Chika
Started Topics :
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40
Posted : Jul 28, 2006 15:14
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as pom say's b4 me i dont think that compression on the kick is a "must thing to do " as a matter of fact i think that we dont need compression on kick at all.
compressor is a tool for reduce the dynamic range of the signal .kick's usually dont have abig dynamic range specially when we use an audio part and duplicate it so you have the same audio part. i prefer to use eq to boost or cut some freq and of cource it has 2 b with the bass line in order to fit them togather (wich hase spoke here alot about).
so u dont have to use compressor on the kick unless u want to emphasize some part's on the kick then you can make also with eq and also with a compressor. |
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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169
Posted : Jul 28, 2006 19:10
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Ok, but I ve read stuff from people who said that compression could bring a "pump"effect to the kick....
Tiken and Pom were more practical and direct to the point saying that they believe that you might not need compress the kick.
Freakuency, I read your post but I feklt like you runned away from answer. Of course monitors and years will do the job. But I can t believe that if we all use a psy trance kick (that basicly are similar) and try to achieve the right compression we can t get to the same conclusion. I mean, there should be a correct technical answer.
I don t mean to be unpolite at all, but I see lots of people here always repeating use your ears...let s try to focus the question and give opinions without being afraid of being wrong.
The question is: ]
1)is kick compression really a "must" ?
2) If it is, which atack, release setting are the correct ones to make the pumping effect heapen? Why are those setting you might mention the correct one to be used? What do they produce to the sound itself.
There might be practical explanations and technical truth behind those questions...remember we already know what the comands of a compressor do, we know we need monitors, we know we need to use ears...we know all the most comum answers to avoid the real answer itself..but let s become more practical in this forum..
peace for u all.
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Janue
IsraTrance Junior Member
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19
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514
Posted : Jul 28, 2006 19:46
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Quote:
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On 2006-07-28 13:35, PoM wrote:
i think you don t need compression at all,it s not a magic tool,some artists never use compression during the mixing stage and they sound crystal clear.
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Totally Agree  , u dont need to compress the kick always, i used to do it, but now i just leave the matter to the eq, with eq u can bring more body to anything u want.....And about the Settings for compression ,threshold,ratio...etc, i will tell you something that may help hehe remember that not everybody has the same monitors and because of this u cant really have a good setting for yourself with others presets,so what i can tell you my friend is that play a little with your kick and bass pumping all the time loop it and change the settings in your compressor and see how it sounds and you said what we all need at the end is OUR ears  Happy Tweaking
 If u are Something, Dont ask for nothing
If u are Nothing, Dont ask for something |
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illusions
Erebus
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
626
Posted : Jul 28, 2006 21:01
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Quote:
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On 2006-07-28 19:10, ess765 wrote:
Ok, but I ve read stuff from people who said that compression could bring a "pump"effect to the kick....
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I don't agree with that. What people might have said is "side chain compression" could bring "pump" to your track  |
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energytick
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jul 29, 2006 00:05
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Here is how I compress kicks:
After Eqing it, put on insert your favourite compressor.
take the threshold down so it just starts working (with low ration, 2:1 is fine)and pumping with the kick.
what is happening is the kick's volume is being decreased by the amount of ratio once it hits the threshold...now, if u give it low attack it will get eaten by the comp. so what i like to do is give it 3-4 Miliseconds of attack , that way you get a bulge of volume between Trigget - > 3-4 miliseconds, and after that i give it low release (7-10) to eaven it out with the tale
keep in mind that a kick is usually 20-30 milliseconds long...so u can visualize the effects for UrSelf
BoM
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Freakuency
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
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46
Posted : Jul 30, 2006 05:57
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ess765 ->
When you are mixing kick and bass you always have to know your end result. Usually you want your kick and bass sound like one but at the same time you wana to distinguish both of them.
Regarding your question, there are no right settings for compressor. Settings that may perfectly sound great on my track with my compressor might ruin yours. As I said in my previous post, it depends what you want to do. I also gave you some basic guideness but it seems that you completely ignored what I said. If you're dying to know my settings of a compressor (on a track I'm working right now), here they are:
Attack - 5ms
Release - 41ms
Thresh - (-8)
Ratio - 3:1
Gain - Adjust gain so that its peak levels are at the same levels as uncompressed.
Does it help? I wouldn't use compressor but because my kick sounded a bit dull I decided to squeze some shit out of it.
Like everyone said already, you don't need to use compression on your kick when you have a good sample. Kick compression is often used in rock production since they record the samples from a real drum kit with an intention to add more punch and clarity to the sound. If mic setup was bad, compression may make it sound worse, since the echoes from other mics will pump up, resulting in a similar effect when u approach a mic near a speaker. Nasty!!
I think u trully underestimate the power of the EQ. See the thing is, EQ can be used as an additive and substractive methods. Try, experiment and you should get there.. |
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energytick
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
52
Posted : Jul 30, 2006 08:04
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Eq has its own role and Compressor has it's own...the two should not be mixed up.
reason is, i dont know any Eq that can act on your dynamic range in speeds of 5 milliseconds, except ofcourse a dynamic Eq wich is a completley diffrent thing.
bootom line: there is no right or wrong, any 1 will use his own technique, But i belive the subject of the topic is
"Kick Compression in details"
not "should i or shouldnt i Compress the kick"
lol
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Freakuency
IsraTrance Junior Member
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46
Posted : Jul 30, 2006 08:46
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you're right it was a typo, my bad
it's not 5 but 50 ms
Considering that a kick is about 200 ms lenght, 50 ms allows me to have a click unaffected. |
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
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169
Posted : Jul 30, 2006 09:42
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Freakuency,
I think this topics target isn t clear. I want to discuss when and why each of the compressors settings should be used.
Let s put this way to be more clear:
we hire 3 of the best e-music producers in the world. we give them the same kick and bass samples and use the same sequencer and plug ins. I believe there will be a similar answer regarding to use certain settings to achieve the best pump effect for the kick and bass.
Eq has a totally diferent hole in a mixing compared to compressor. To use Eq as your friend as yoou said, means to make and bass clear when played together. It s a matter of adjutment between same frequencies. That has nothing to do with compressors capability. Even if you achieve the perfect frequencies integration between bass and kick, you still can use compressor to achieve some pumping effect that Eq has not his capability.
So. the point here is that people share their own experience telling others why and when does he uses each of the settings on compressor.
examples:
1)I use fast atack and slow release because a fast release does xxxxxxxxxxx in the kick wave because xxxxxxxxxxx. So i need a slow release cause it does xxxxxxxxxxx to the kick waves and it gives xxxxxxxxxxxxx kind of results.
2)I never use compressor on kicks because xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
I ve read a lot stuff about kick being 20ms long and so on. There s theory behind the answer I look for. If sound itself is a kind of energy running in cycles, how each of the setting of a compressor affects those waves??
Back to the experts we d hire. They probably would get to the same conclusion on those similar samples we gave them to work with. So I think there s a technical truth to be explored here. Maybe none of them would ever use a compressor on kick. But if you pay atention to great tracks that have great kicks work, you ll notice that not only eq did some of the jobs. Some kicks hit harder or smoother than others not for frequencies matters but buy how much they were compressed..
Ilusions: sidechain can bring balance between kick and bass in a way that the bass will depend on the kick to be heard and felt (ratio setting being very important). I don t think it will make the kick pump exactly. It will make the kick to be well defined and balanced against the bassline. |
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Freakuency
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jul 30, 2006 11:04
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Kicks are not 20ms in lenght, but 200ms. I only mentioned this because it's very important for psy trance.
Quote:
| we hire 3 of the best e-music producers in the world. we give them the same kick and bass samples and use the same sequencer and plug ins. I believe there will be a similar answer regarding to use certain settings to achieve the best pump effect for the kick and bass. |
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Unfortunatly for you, we all have quite different samples, instruments, and tastes. There is NO best universal settings that work for all. Therefore, what you're asking is just pointless. Besides, compressor is far not the only tool to achieve punchier kicks. The combination with other technique(s) will provide you with full and punchy sound.
Anyways, if you wanna use compressor to add some punch to your kicks, here is a good preset you might wanna start with:
Attack - at least 20 ms or a little more
Release - 200ms
Thresh - Few db for a start (Add some more when wanted/needed)
Ratio - 2:1 to begin with
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Freakuency
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
46
Posted : Jul 30, 2006 11:35
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Con't
I set attack at 20 ms (or more) because I want the click sound to be uncompressed, resulting in more punch. I set the release time at 200 ms setting (initially), so that I can feel the effect of the compressor. Why do I set only a few db of thresh and 2:1 for ratio? Isn't it low? Well, because I want it like this!! I can always increse these parameters later on, depending on my taste, mood, and choices/posibilities. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
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8087
Posted : Jul 30, 2006 13:29
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if you want the bass to pump with the kick ,it s not the compression on the kick,it s on the bass or in a group chanel with the 2,you can try sidechain compression too. |
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