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Kick & Bass group compression `gel`
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jul 3, 2010 11:31
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On 2010-06-30 04:33, dj chichke wrote:
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On 2010-06-29 22:09, Colin OOOD wrote:
Dagan from Misted Muppet showed me a trick for this a few years ago and it's served me well ever since, for giving the kick + bass just a certain little something. Obviously you need to get the sounds right and balanced in the first place but this works nicely.
It's very simple indeed: Waves C1sc with the Bass Enhancer II preset.
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i tried it now. it's sounds good but it raise the bass volume as hell.
it's very wired after i decreased 2db from the output of the compressor the level of the kickbass group as group became equal to the level of the group without the compressor. but the level of bassline alone with compressor on the group is higher than without compressor on the group. and same for the kick. how is it possible?
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good question
a gave it a long hard thought.
The kick and bass played together creates a constructive interference and i think it changes the speed of the peaks.
where before, when you played the kick or bass on solo, some audible peaks were getting past your attack setting.
Does that sound logical? good chance i'm wrong 
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dj chichke
Chichke
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Posted : Jul 3, 2010 14:55
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it changed the speed of the peaks for sure. if the attack of the compressor is not very short so it enhance the attack of the kick\bass. so i understand why the meter of cubase (that show peak level) reads it louder with compressor than without. but still i don't get it how is it possible that as group the kickbass group have the same peak volume, but as individuals they are louder with compressor than without it. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 3, 2010 15:25
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not sure i understand right, but if you use a compressor to give more snap to the sound ( you let transients uncompressed) if will always sound quieter cause you compress just the body of the sound using a not very fast attack speed .(to compensate you may use the make up gain that is why the peak are higher in volume than the uncompressed signal , cause the attack of the sound is uncompressed and you use make up gain so it rise the uncompressed peaks) to make a signal louder and that have same peaks on the meter you have to catch the first peaks with fastest attack . what you can try is to let the trasnients uncompressed to get a good snap and it can help sounds to sit well in the mix (like a snare for example )and use light/short cliping ,can work great on some percussive sounds , some hardware comps will just do that depending of the level you drive them |
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dj chichke
Chichke
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705
Posted : Jul 3, 2010 19:32
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i'll explain it differently.
i have bass -9bd
kick -8 db
when playing together the master shows -7db.
i put them into group and put compressor on the group. i adjusted it that when the kick and bass playing together the master still shows -7db.
but now the kick shows me -7db and the bass -6db.
do you understand the conflict here?
it's wired....
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 3, 2010 21:42
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nope don t understand man sorry, maybe your bass is stereo and your bus mono so it mix both side ? get around 3 db increase |
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
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655
Posted : Jul 4, 2010 13:27
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well,
dunno if itīs still needed. but some time ago i pposted a thread here on isratrance regarding how to achieve a simple bass patch in zebra. it included some ideas on how to process the sound after and how i go for things.
it was some kind of very simple and just to give ppl wanna get started a point to work with.
lemme have a look.....
ahhh, would you mind i post here again? i cant find on isratrance but had success on triplag forum. anyways one has to be registered to be able to read it. sooo, if this is wrong section, offtopic or not welcome here, pls mods feel free to erase or stuff.
so here we go:
to processing, i try to get the bass as near to what i want to achieve, usually i have to keep more attention on the kickdrum to give it the punch working good with the bass. but this is fast music i do, it always depends on what sound you do and what notes,scale youīre working on and what you want to achieve.
anyways, there are few things i do after. i try to avoid the use of eq, but if i use, i use very decent settings, no notches or corrections, just some slight up and down here and there. what i put down on bass i.e. i tend to raise on the kick and vice versa. but if i do itīs usually some corrections (downs) on the bass around 120-150hz where the mud lies and the "hums" we dont like (just if its disturbin and if i dont like it!). i give it some raise sometimes around 500hz where the bass begins to "live". usually i dont have any trouble with not enough punch, but could raise around 93hz-100hz for sure, there is the punch. but usually I DONT. ah and sometimes i cut below 30-20hz, but this depends on the bass, same here, try to avoid the need of a cut, digital basses often are not that muddy like analog ones few years ago. with few right synth you dont need to cut cause sure one wants to feel the bass too. and if you wanna get some really deep bass shaking through your whole body, then pls dont cut the shit out of it. anyways, what you prefer and what sounds good to you is the only thing matters. at least this is only my opinion and only to give you something to think about. sometimes itīs needed and sometimes you dont need. you will find out yourself during some while...
the problem often is not to get it sounding "good", itīs to get it sounding together.
so i tend to glue them together, because the 100hz section is the body of both and both need that punch. and sure weīre all looking for that tight and boomy stuff.
usually my kickdrum needs more of that punch, so i like to raise that section with a mastering eq (like stilwell 1973 or flux eq for that job, if you dont like the character just take another one or take use of a linear phase one, which i dont like for that job  ), giving it some more punch and character around 100hz until the kick "meets" the bass. and usually i give it some more body than the bass, around 60hz maybe some raisealways depending on the source for sure. everything just slightly and with lots of care. get it sounding good is always only about the right settings in any process. and mastering eq i.e. colours the bass and your ear gets very fast used to it!! so keep attention on using it wise or in best case avoid the need. itīs possible doin everything only in zebra and glue kick/bass together on a send with a compressor on it if you desire.
my last advice, sending both (kick/bass) to a return channel and putting some slight compression on it. itīs not to make it louder, just glue them together. so,... hard to say. one can hear how it sounds some more together and not that departed. the dynamic content of the bass is going more to the mid section and sounds more together that way with the kick adding some more punch for sure through some slight compression depending on dynamic content. i use fast attack settings with pretty usual release around 200-250ms (experiment around to avoid the pumping fx), threshold to taste. depending on the track and the need i decide sending through return to master or mix both signals to master.
but also here i try to avoid this. possible to avoid the need. but often the results just sound better this way and clean up the mix if itīs getting busy in other ranges.
anyway i try to avoid compression and eqing all the time. if i do, then only if itīs sounding better or absolutely needed to get the result i got in mind. if i can do that on the source this is my preferation. keep in mind youīre always dealing with lack of quality and loosing dynamics with any process you do
this is my way to go for things. just to give you something to get started with hope this kinda helps. lot of information here maybe for some of you, if you think about after reading you will find heaps of new possibilities i guess.
and my last tip, try to avoid hearing kick and bass for longer than few minutes. rather stop playing while you do some settings and have some breaks between. because your hearing changes very fast and with fast music you got really weired psychoacustic FX let you believe youīre on a absolutely wrong way (caused by the hypnotic repetation of the baseline your brain imagines own changes in it just not being there for real) and maybe already got it. i know lots of ppl working on baseline just for too long. i try to focus on details later. fact is that the only importance is how the baseline works with your song. when i got all material and maybe all stuff already arrangened i go for details and working on the sounds, cleaning up everything, doin prior mix and stuff (usually another day, to have a clear and neutral hearing). so my advice, focus on some basics, i really start like the way i told you. cause itīs simple and i can work on details later but already got a decent bass to work with. also the steps about processing i do later on, not while iīm for kick/bass. because later on the track i can decide if itīs needed or not.
at least this gives me the ability to focus on finishing the track as fast as possible. i work like this because otherwise i would loose my ideas and sounds and all things left behind for the track in my mind.
hope you dont mind the novel
 FUCK GENRES, LOVE MUSIC!!!!
http://soundcloud.com/mandarimedia
http://banyan-records.com |
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
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Posted : Jul 4, 2010 13:33
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sooo, this was just an idea of mine and one way how i go for things. maybe one can see self that theres no golden rule applyable to this.it depends on what you want to achieve and how it sounds on the source. i agree totally that if you got some decent kick/bass done on the source, there will be no need for further processing. BUT it can make it sounding better or clean up the mix.
just try to figure out what is sounding better at the end. i.e. you say this group is already sidechained. imo or at least i guess if itīs sounding like i actually imagine i wouldnt go for compression because i had NEVER even one case where i had to compress again the already sidechained group. however this does not automatically mean that your sonic material wont benefit from it. like i said, depending on the source.
long term short sense, one has to carefully listen and figure out which processing the material will benefit from or which is needed to get it sounding right. often i dont need these techniques and some decent eq or even nothing than just bounce and cut or similiar leads to a good sounding kick/bass group. like i said in my "tut" above, i figure out later if further processing is needed or if the material will benefit. i.e. a busy mix with lots of different leads some of them playing pretty much down in the freq. range of the kick/bass group, this would be a case where iīd go for figuring out some processing to clean up the mix. but for sure there are more than just one possibility. one could work with parallel multiband compression on a group for instance, which i guess wouldnt be my way, but for sure possible to get good results. and sure this could be a case for using compression on kick/bass group as this would squish the dynamic content of them kind together (because the bass usually gots more and looses due to compression it sounds more "together", cause the content of the bass is squished back.... excuse my frensh xD) an easy way and maybe more exact depending on your plugs is just to take use of an eq many possibilities.
if the mix is clean and no clashes, wholes, disturbing freq. etc i have to say i dont do anything. the mix should keep as much dynamic content possible imo, at the end my opinion and the way i go for things. if something gets too busy i work on the source and fix it there, same if i dont like something in a sound like notchy disturbing freq. i would always try to fix on the source like fix filter settings, adsr, tune etc before gettin a eq on my channel.
so to come back to the topic my way would be checking if kick/bass needs processing. if you say yes, it does, than probably you can check on the source. something really many people, incl. me, is lack of breaks between (i mean for you,not your music:D). so often i hear mixes that got weither bass or kick or something else too much gained due to listening for hours to the stuff. it can often sound already together if one fixes the level of them. my way doin this is working on a prior mix later and mute all channels starting with the bass and give it that much gain, that itīs sounding nice and pleasant, no matter on what level you will play it. after, i apply the kick to that etc.... before i put on the rest i tend to check all the other stuff with kick/bass muted. just to check if theyīre not too busy and everythings still clean easy catchable and if the space is like i want it to be. often theres no need to put all faders down, just needs to be checked. when i got that, i tend to give the bass that much gain that its still sounding nice and got enough power to play nicely with the higher content and fill it in the lows while not disturbing or coming to the fore. adjust the kick to give the low its punch and there one goes.....
so in general one could say i fix my mix from side to mid and not the other way, even if i start with mid/bass. this was just to figure out how far i can go with the bass while keepin the sound pleasant and not distorted or similiar...
there are many ways to rome and i can just repeat that this is only one example of how i go for things. also just one way i tend to use if itīs needed. one should carefully think about if any process is needed and if the sound benefits from it.
wow, pls excuse the novel and repetations, coffeeīs guilty, hope you dont mind and someone could get something out of it xD
cheers: stephan
FUCK GENRES, LOVE MUSIC!!!!
http://soundcloud.com/mandarimedia
http://banyan-records.com |
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jul 4, 2010 15:05
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Quote:
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On 2010-07-03 19:32, dj chichke wrote:
i'll explain it differently.
i have bass -9bd
kick -8 db
when playing together the master shows -7db.
i put them into group and put compressor on the group. i adjusted it that when the kick and bass playing together the master still shows -7db.
but now the kick shows me -7db and the bass -6db.
do you understand the conflict here?
it's wired....
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if u took colins advice then it is because it is upward compression ...the comp brings volume up instead of bringin down 
http://soundcloud.com/magimix-1/chilling-forest-whispers
Wierd shit happens :) |
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mk47
Inactive User
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118
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4444
Posted : Jul 4, 2010 15:36
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psp vintagewarmer`s mastering first aid preset on the bassline bus /group / send , whatever its called .
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
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187
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5292
Posted : Jul 5, 2010 17:41
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jul 5, 2010 21:20
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I have to say,
It was impossible to tell a difference with the desktop speakers(+sub)
I turned on the monitors and still very hard to tell a difference.
with me, I get a lot more noticable change with group compression with a +/-1db reduction.
using: this little BLOCKFISH compressor.
http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=5
i add some dynamic sat.
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makus
Overdream
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Posted : Jul 5, 2010 23:11
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
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5292
Posted : Jul 5, 2010 23:36
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On 2010-07-05 23:11, makus wrote:
nectarious, did you do the NY style comp, or just compressed the subgroup?
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I'm routing the kick and bass channels to buss 11 which in turn goes out to the master output. No sends, otherwise I would get the individual kick and bass channels to the master output, as well as the buss where the group compression occurs. Its group compression, not parallel compression.
Then I have another ghost kick track which goes out to buss 10, cause buss 10 is my sidechain trigger, but buss 10 is not routed to any output, its just there for the individual channels where sidechain compression occurs to "listen" to.
Bare in mind, I am actually compressing the kick and bass channels individually...the difference is really subtle, it seems to be doing something...it might just be a placebo effect, knowing which is which. It does seem to make things slightly tighter though.
Then again the only compressors I have are the ones that come with Logic, which are by no means high end software compressors...oh how I miss my Joemeek SC2.2 right now... It will probably work better with some nice Sonnox or Waves SSL 4000 suit ones. But I need money to eat + I have a girlfriend that wants to go on vacation...as if there is any better place in the world than my dark, mucky studio...
I'm going to take this to a proper studio when I get the chance, cause I'm split between the no group compression, FET and Opto group compression.
Peace out.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 6, 2010 09:52
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 10, 2010 00:33
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no compression and fet for me , thanks for doing that i was wondering about the diferent modeled circuit,i have find the first one , platinum if i m right is clean ,over a bit more colored
edit:i think opto sond good too and maybe pump a bit better than the fet but imo the uncompressed is better |
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