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Kick and Bass position
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
58
Posts :
1397
Posted : Sep 30, 2013 19:26
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Melange5738
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
142
Posted : Oct 1, 2013 02:22
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I think some synths will always have an audible artifact in the low freq range. Massive will have it if you use the amp envelope, but you can hack it by simply not using the envelope for the amp (mute it and use some other amp technique, such as a mod on the amp section of the osc). |
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Soundmagus
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
67
Posts :
633
Posted : Oct 1, 2013 10:05
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 1, 2013 15:26
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On 2013-10-01 02:22, Melange5738 wrote:
I think some synths will always have an audible artifact in the low freq range. Massive will have it if you use the amp envelope, but you can hack it by simply not using the envelope for the amp (mute it and use some other amp technique, such as a mod on the amp section of the osc).
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what do you mean? what's wrong with the envelopes? is it about the attack not being fast/clicky enough for your needs?
I've used the performer curves to make some kicks, but honestly feel it's not really needed - as long as you mix in the clicky layer later. don't feel it's needed at all for bass. |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 1, 2013 16:49
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On 2013-09-30 19:26, daark wrote:
Will there be a low end artifact existing all the time from soft synths ? cant you program a patch witout too much low end ? is this possible or not ?
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let's see... when you choose a sawtooth (or any other rich in harmonics waveform) as a basis for a sound, any synthesizer - be it software, hardware va or analogue - will produce frequencies above and bellow the fundamental. that's not an artifact at all!
the main difference between synthesizers here is between digital (this includes hardware like the Virus, Nord Lead, Korg Radias, Novation's Supernova, etc) and analogue. software synthesizers usually present you with two options: one is a "free running oscillator" where the wave is generated at a random phase for each note played (something used to emulate the constant flowing waveform on a VCO); and the "retrig" option where the initial phase of the waveform is always the same for every note. nowadays, some analogue machines can do this as well, like the Moog's Minitaur (like Necatarios pointed out recently), but used to be a feature only present on either digital synthesizers or samplers.
granted you're using a synthesizer with this option, you're notes are steady and stable as a rock.
of course this wasn't always the case with older software synthesizers or those that don't have this option at all, like Logic's ESM - used a lot because people like it's sound, but behaves like a real analogue so you'd have to bounce a few notes for each note and choose the best to place in a sampler - tedious work really. some older software synthesizers also couldn't handle this low notes and fast envelopes very well, and sometimes produced little differences in the output, with some notes presenting a better defined transient then others (even Logic's ES-1, a much used one for psy bass, some claim), therefore people did the same process.
with modern software synthesizers, the truth of the matter is: you don't really have to worry about that! just tweak your sound to your liking and that's it!
next in line is EQ and the phase-shifting issue. well, analogue EQ devices always introduce phase shifting as they wouldn't even work without it! so that's no big issue either. in nature sounds have pretty fast attacks and longer decays, the way this works (to put it simple) is it introduces a tiny delay, that results in a longer decay. more often then not, it sounds natural and musical. truth of the matter is: you need to mix your sounds so they play well with each other and that's it! of course filters with different slopes will have a different impact on your sounds, and most filters will infact affect other frequencies - besides the ones you're affecting directly - but, again, it's good to know how it works but why would one feel the need to avoid this as this is precisely what makes EQ such a musical sounding device? in audio all things are related and that's good! |
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Melange5738
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
142
Posted : Oct 2, 2013 04:33
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On 2013-10-01 15:26, frisbeehead wrote:
what do you mean? what's wrong with the envelopes? is it about the attack not being fast/clicky enough for your needs?
I've used the performer curves to make some kicks, but honestly feel it's not really needed - as long as you mix in the clicky layer later. don't feel it's needed at all for bass.
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Well, yeah, the envelope is not being fast enough basicly. It is not always a problem but it is probably also because I am not very good at Massive, my Massive sounds tend to sound a little hard, cold, bulky and sort of... massive-ish. Exactly like all that crummy dubstep music that you find on all those Massive-tutorials on youtube. |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 2, 2013 04:55
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Quote:
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On 2013-10-02 04:33, Melange5738 wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-10-01 15:26, frisbeehead wrote:
what do you mean? what's wrong with the envelopes? is it about the attack not being fast/clicky enough for your needs?
I've used the performer curves to make some kicks, but honestly feel it's not really needed - as long as you mix in the clicky layer later. don't feel it's needed at all for bass.
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Well, yeah, the envelope is not being fast enough basicly. It is not always a problem but it is probably also because I am not very good at Massive, my Massive sounds tend to sound a little hard, cold, bulky and sort of... massive-ish. Exactly like all that crummy dubstep music that you find on all those Massive-tutorials on youtube.
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try the "daft filter". place the tele tube in one of the inserts and mix it in with the signal. I feel the normal envelopes to be fast enough, really. sometimes even dial in just a touch of the attack on the amp's envelope. the snapyness comes from nice settings on the filter mod with another envelope imo. find it a cool machine for Bass tbo, you can use some unisson on it to, sounds great, 2 or 3 voices more then enough for hot signal, internal EQ not bad at all but you can find better... cheerios |
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Melange5738
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
142
Posted : Oct 2, 2013 15:30
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frisbeehead: I know the basics quite well but I still have problems getting it to sound the way I want. One of the best stab sounds I have made in Massive I still cannot use because it leaves out an audible click before and after and I have not figured out a way to get rid of both and keeping the sound the way I want it. |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 2, 2013 16:03
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On 2013-10-02 15:30, Melange5738 wrote:
frisbeehead: I know the basics quite well but I still have problems getting it to sound the way I want. One of the best stab sounds I have made in Massive I still cannot use because it leaves out an audible click before and after and I have not figured out a way to get rid of both and keeping the sound the way I want it.
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you mentioned cold sound, so I thought I'd share some settings that could help - not trying to school anyone here, sorry for that!
about the audio clicks: what kind of patch is that? usually don't get those clicks from Massive myself.
Cheers |
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Melange5738
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
142
Posted : Oct 2, 2013 16:55
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Quote:
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On 2013-10-02 16:03, frisbeehead wrote:
you mentioned cold sound, so I thought I'd share some settings that could help - not trying to school anyone here, sorry for that!
about the audio clicks: what kind of patch is that? usually don't get those clicks from Massive myself.
Cheers
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I appriciate whatever feedback I get. The coldness is sort of the actual character of most sounds I have heard in Massive, including both the stuff I have made myself and the stuff that comes with the databanks.
I will expand on the clicks later, I have not had any time to sit with it since I saw the Delta Deep kickdrum tutorial on youtube which goes through some of that same issue.
My problem is basicly a stab sweep in the low freq spectrum which is enveloped: I can teak the first envelope by attack to get rid of the first click (which I presume has something to do from having two oscillators), but the final release click seem to persist no matter what I do.
If anyone of you guys want to do a video tutorial of Massive when you tweak the limits of it in terms of speed I am sure many of us would be very happy (like "fast psy trance bass line vs. slow sweep stab" etc). |
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Midnight Sun
ProtoDrive
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
529
Posted : Oct 2, 2013 20:42
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I don't know if you have tryed yet but usually click issues on synths can be solved on the ASDR section, be very carefull there, also check your note lenght, use a progressive oscilloscope to be sure.
 ProtoDrive https://soundcloud.com/protodrive |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 2, 2013 20:54
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On 2013-10-02 16:55, Melange5738 wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-10-02 16:03, frisbeehead wrote:
you mentioned cold sound, so I thought I'd share some settings that could help - not trying to school anyone here, sorry for that!
about the audio clicks: what kind of patch is that? usually don't get those clicks from Massive myself.
Cheers
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I appriciate whatever feedback I get. The coldness is sort of the actual character of most sounds I have heard in Massive, including both the stuff I have made myself and the stuff that comes with the databanks.
I will expand on the clicks later, I have not had any time to sit with it since I saw the Delta Deep kickdrum tutorial on youtube which goes through some of that same issue.
My problem is basicly a stab sweep in the low freq spectrum which is enveloped: I can teak the first envelope by attack to get rid of the first click (which I presume has something to do from having two oscillators), but the final release click seem to persist no matter what I do.
If anyone of you guys want to do a video tutorial of Massive when you tweak the limits of it in terms of speed I am sure many of us would be very happy (like "fast psy trance bass line vs. slow sweep stab" etc).
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yeah, amp envelope should handle the audio clicks, if attack does it for the first, release will do it for the later?
the problem with surpassing the envelopes and using the performer mode instead - like I believe is the case with the video you mention (if it's the same one I saw once) - is that for Kicks this extra sharp click can be useful, whilst for other sounds it becomes a problem. thing is, I don't think the envelopes are really that slow responding, and that video just states so because of how they've designed the interface. but if you actually check it with an oscilloscope, the envelopes are very responsive and apt for any kind of bass sound, no matter how fast (even 175+ bpm for KBBB).
in a situation where you really prefer the sound with the performer instead of the envelopes, since it's a stab, bounce it down, put some micro fade in there and place it on a sampler maybe! not worth the headache! 
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 3, 2013 06:06
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as for Massive's envelopes not being fast enough:
it's quite simply a myth! what I think is that they've integrated some kind of "smooth attack" feature under the hood, or at least tamed it to a reasonable (for most uses) level - while some instruments allow you to turn this on and off, or control the level. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Oct 3, 2013 10:14
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i kind of agree in massive the envelop are strange , it s the casue the attack is linear and not exponential i guess? and the amp maybe ? no idea..analog vca can have linear/expo curve dunno if they modeled this.
the attack is always smooth..not that its a bad thing it s part of the caractere of the synth ,there is something dodgy with the quality settings/oversampling too
it s accentued cause of the frequency reponse of the synth that can be kinda dark , that contribute at making transients and overall sound not clear and super detailed imo or it s just a impression.. |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 3, 2013 15:21
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On 2013-10-03 10:14, PoM wrote:
i kind of agree in massive the envelop are strange , it s the casue the attack is linear and not exponential i guess? and the amp maybe ? no idea..analog vca can have linear/expo curve dunno if they modeled this.
the attack is always smooth..not that its a bad thing it s part of the caractere of the synth ,there is something dodgy with the quality settings/oversampling too
it s accentued cause of the frequency reponse of the synth that can be kinda dark , that contribute at making transients and overall sound not clear and super detailed imo or it s just a impression..
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think it's down to the attack being linear like you said!
based on this test I did with the oscilloscope, where one can see clearly that the output is indeed very fast, I tend to think they've implemented some kind of "smooth attack" thing under the hood to remove the excessive click from the attack (the one we listen clearly when using the performer window instead of the envelope), with no on/off option.
when we have a linear attack and the knob is all the way to the left, we expect to ear that! and that must be what people are saying here I guess...
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