frisbeehead
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Posted : Sep 1, 2013 16:00
Quote:
On 2013-09-01 14:58, Colin OOOD wrote:
I really recommend against using linear phase EQ on the low end, it will destroy your transients.
I'm glad I don't, as I'm more then happy with a regular EQ.
But, to be honest, I'm quite impressed. I recall having made some tests and thought the high pass filter was less noticeable with the linear phase EQ (did the test with the Fabfilter's Q), but didn't check with an oscilloscope, nor did I bounce it down to audio to analyse.
I thought that the only problem one would have was that the latency is so pronounced with those EQs that it almost feels like the Bass notes have been delayed using the DAW's channel sample delay...
Anyways, thanks for correcting me
would really appreciate some more detailed stuff on that!
Cheers
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Sep 1, 2013 16:17
If your name is not Brent, then I'll repost the video on this that I just saw on Facebook :-P
frisbeehead
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Posted : Sep 1, 2013 16:21
Quote:
On 2013-09-01 16:17, Colin OOOD wrote:
If your name is not Brent, then I'll repost the video on this that I just saw on Facebook :-P
my name is definitely not Brent
PoM
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Posted : Sep 1, 2013 19:40
the linear phase can be mroe transparent..just folow your ears.. phase introduce phase shift /time problem , linear phase add pre ringing that can result in softening of transients . some eq do a mix of both and to me it can be the most transparent on some source..just a little of pre ringing is unoticeable but the gain with less phase shift can be well earable by keeping the eq cut more transparent preserving the tightness of the sound
pro Q hp is not really transparent thought and his linear mode sucks
frisbeehead
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Posted : Sep 1, 2013 20:43
Quote:
On 2013-09-01 19:40, PoM wrote:
, linear phase add pre ringing that can result in softening of transients.
what do you mean with pre ringing? don't know that term.
Quote:
On 2013-09-01 19:40, PoM wrote:
but the gain with less phase shift can be well earable by keeping the eq cut more transparent preserving the tightness of the sound
pro Q hp is not really transparent thought and his linear mode sucks
Tried plenty of EQs and honestly feel like Pro Q is transparent enough even for surgical stuff. I don't feel like it colours the sound at all, and only use it for cutting, not boosting. I think it's one of the best EQs out there, but can't really say much about it's linear phase mode tbh. but would like to know why you say that, to. and tell me an EQ you think is transparent and a good linear phase EQ.
PoM
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Posted : Sep 1, 2013 21:31
for pre ringing better you check on the net to get a accurate description . linear add pre/post riging while phase eq only post, it s less noticeable .
pro q is very transparent like lot of digital eq, but the type of hp filter is not the most suited/transparent for everything imo
ozone 5 eq is good imo with right option settings/right use and same for dmg audio equilibrum, these eq might need a little understanding to set them right depending the use .. try equilibrum interface is better than ozone eq and it s deeper..
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Sep 2, 2013 02:19
frisbeehead
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Posted : Sep 2, 2013 04:56
@POM
got what you mean, but usually do this cuts on the low end with either Logic's own EQ or this one from Fabfilter, but have used plenty of others. if I'm cutting on 30Hz, for example, I can feel the difference more then ear it, right? on the headphones I can feel a big difference between filters, but usually don't feel like it's a big deal tbo. maybe due to the way I design the sounds or the note I choose or both, but I'm not really that picky about digital eq - like Fabfilter because of the. interface and the cool analyser included and the fact it has many bands if one needs them.
what about the slopes? I can easily use a 48dB high pass filter on 30Hz plenty of times, other times I like a more gentle kind of filter. I know some Voxengo Eqs have nice sounding filters, and so does Sonalksis. Used Flux Epure often to, feel it's a great sounding EQ as well. but lately been using Fabfilter a lot more then others.
will check this term on the net, thanks
@Colin
yeah, the difference in this video is mind blowing!
frisbeehead
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Posted : Sep 2, 2013 05:41
any idea what analyser was being used there? that thing shows a lot of info in a very precise way, have some from bluecat's audio but doesn't even come close to this, not even izotope's insight for that matter.
but unfortonately I'm in the mac side of the force. anyone knows of another one with Audio Unit format that would display what happens to phase in a similar way?
so the ringing is actually produced by the filter, as an artifact - that can and many times does sound musical and helps to shape the sound, but other times, as shown on the sine wave example, get mixed with the signal in an unpleasant way, deforming/blending the transient to the point where it becomes soft and non defined. totally depends on the settings used, though, but on the Kick using linear phase would totally kill (and I mean on a bad way XD). interesting how the plug-in latency compensation actually makes the problem just worse in some sittuations, like shown.
this is a lot "of topic", but anyways: I've gained the habit of checking the phase correlation between signals when layering sounds for drums, lately. adjusting one or the two signals with some sample delay (talking ms here), or inverting the phase (doesn't always work though). never used the linear phase EQ on such occasions though. usually when I'm combining two sounds, I've shaped their frequencies before going through this phase alignment/invertion thing so it doesn't really make much of the difference. ok, so how do you guys feel about that? the feeling I got (and what I heard) was that the transients sound much more clean after I go through this process.
have never done such a thing to Bass though, even when using two or more layers (that I don't do to often with psytrance anyways).
PoM
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Posted : Sep 2, 2013 10:47
Quote:
On 2013-09-02 04:56, frisbeehead wrote:
@POM
got what you mean, but usually do this cuts on the low end with either Logic's own EQ or this one from Fabfilter, but have used plenty of others. if I'm cutting on 30Hz, for example, I can feel the difference more then ear it, right? on the headphones I can feel a big difference between filters, but usually don't feel like it's a big deal tbo. maybe due to the way I design the sounds or the note I choose or both, but I'm not really that picky about digital eq - like Fabfilter because of the. interface and the cool analyser included and the fact it has many bands if one needs them.
what about the slopes? I can easily use a 48dB high pass filter on 30Hz plenty of times, other times I like a more gentle kind of filter. I know some Voxengo Eqs have nice sounding filters, and so does Sonalksis. Used Flux Epure often to, feel it's a great sounding EQ as well. but lately been using Fabfilter a lot more then others.
will check this term on the net, thanks
@Colin
yeah, the difference in this video is mind blowing!
it s your monitoring if you don't hear much difference but it also depend the material, hp on a bassline next to a kick i find is really good to rate how transparent a high pass filter is. 48db at 30 hz is far to be transparent..it probably affect the sound till 10 000 hz or even more but if it sound good..there is no perfect cut anyway it s about using the most suited filter for the result after
linear phase can be fine too..off course you re not gonna use it the way the ringing is noticeable but in a transparent way if possible or just use phase eq.. to me it s like blaming a compresor to distort ..
eq i mentioned offer split in % between lp/phase (direct control on the amount of pre ringing vs phase shift )and to me it s really what offer the best options for equing, it s great for most transparency depending the source /band settings and result after
frisbeehead
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Posted : Sep 2, 2013 18:02
Quote:
On 2013-09-02 10:47, PoM wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-09-02 04:56, frisbeehead wrote:
@POM
got what you mean, but usually do this cuts on the low end with either Logic's own EQ or this one from Fabfilter, but have used plenty of others. if I'm cutting on 30Hz, for example, I can feel the difference more then ear it, right? on the headphones I can feel a big difference between filters, but usually don't feel like it's a big deal tbo. maybe due to the way I design the sounds or the note I choose or both, but I'm not really that picky about digital eq - like Fabfilter because of the. interface and the cool analyser included and the fact it has many bands if one needs them.
what about the slopes? I can easily use a 48dB high pass filter on 30Hz plenty of times, other times I like a more gentle kind of filter. I know some Voxengo Eqs have nice sounding filters, and so does Sonalksis. Used Flux Epure often to, feel it's a great sounding EQ as well. but lately been using Fabfilter a lot more then others.
will check this term on the net, thanks
@Colin
yeah, the difference in this video is mind blowing!
it s your monitoring if you don't hear much difference but it also depend the material, hp on a bassline next to a kick i find is really good to rate how transparent a high pass filter is. 48db at 30 hz is far to be transparent..it probably affect the sound till 10 000 hz or even more but if it sound good..there is no perfect cut anyway it s about using the most suited filter for the result after
linear phase can be fine too..off course you re not gonna use it the way the ringing is noticeable but in a transparent way if possible or just use phase eq.. to me it s like blaming a compresor to distort ..
eq i mentioned offer split in % between lp/phase (direct control on the amount of pre ringing vs phase shift )and to me it s really what offer the best options for equing, it s great for most transparency depending the source /band settings and result after
I see what you mean. I can notice those differences much better with headphones, rather then with the speakers. With the speakers is more a question of the felt difference.
I have noticed the effect of Equalizers is not as linear as shown on the graphic, as it can introduce some artifacts, like all filters do. I tend to apply it in a way that suits the sounds and sometimes this effect can indeed sound musical - like you say with the compressor - so it's a welcome addition rather then a naughty artifact you'd want to get rid off.
In such low frequencies, I focus more on the balance between the sounds and making them play well together. I don't really worry that much about transparency for a kick. If you listen to it after the processing has been done, you'll take it as is - not knowing how the raw material sounded in the first place, know what I mean?
That level of control seems interesting, what's the name of he EQ you mention?
I'll look at it more as an "education/ know how" thing, but will perform some tests and want to get a deeper understanging of this subject. I don't feel like we should make that much of a big deal if our low end is sounding good and focused to start with.
@POM what about the layering of sounds? what's your take on it? in reggards to phase correlation/alignment?
and do you know any analyser that would display the phase shift information in a way similar to that displayed on the video? but in Audio Unit format or VST for mac (would do fine on Ableton).
I got the feeling Colin is right from the beginning of the video, and then got convinced looking at those graphs that the ringing on the filter does indeed interfere with the sound in a bad way, coupled with the plug-in latency compensation thing.
I usually work with digital EQ for cuts and only boost with analogue modeled, most specially in the low end - so I guess I really don't mind and actually crave for some character added in there (as opposed to transparency), as long as it's musical and suits the track.
Overall, pretty interesting stuff here!
PoM
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Posted : Sep 2, 2013 18:27
i think both eq i mentioned can show you the phase shift on their graph but it s not really usefull..
for layering for example drums i don't care .. with cancelation/alignement i try to get the sound that will need the less processing. it bother me mostly on saw bassline ..where timing and tightness matter..phase shifts affect both in good or bad way..i go for phase eq but a less phase shift and a little pre ringing can work really good
i know a few producers who used mostly linear phase maybe not anymore i dont know.. and i know lot of you guys like their production and tunes from what i read there..so..what ever sound good in the end , dont blame the tools..
seriously you should try equilibrum.. you may have to go a bit geeky on the manual to fully understand /get best out of it but it s a good one
frisbeehead
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Posted : Sep 2, 2013 21:52
Quote:
On 2013-09-02 18:27, PoM wrote:
seriously you should try equilibrum.. you may have to go a bit geeky on the manual to fully understand /get best out of it but it s a good one
yeah, I've used their compressor and it's very deep. if the EQ is anything like it, I'm sure it's got plenty of options you rarely see on other products.
I don't think anyone on its right mind would blame the tools. I like the fact that we can get as deep an understanding of their inner workings on this digital age with proper analysis tools at hand. I don't think of this aspects discussed here as short comings of the devices, but rather something that's inherent to their design. Learning about it can educate us about such tools in the first place (not bad if we relly on them on regular basis) and, at best, offer some insights that can have a positive impact on our creativity or simply contribute to a more informed usage of them.
digital tools made it so much more precise and transparent that people started to lush after the character and somewhat more organic nature of the devices of the old age. I think progress has made both digital precision tools and the analogue modeling reach a very high standard of quality.
in psytrance we have a nice mix of the two: on the one hand we like to have things controlled and focused, we like all the control we can get. but we also like to inject some grit or attitude on some of our stuff - and we're dead curious about it all.
will check this EQ out, thanks for the suggestion!
EDIT
"The Phase modes have been revamped entirely - now you can assign phase for each band independently, tune the windowing, and there are graphs for everything, so if you're a mastering engineer wanting to control ringing, you can see the ringing clearly, and what's affecting it!"
this is from DMG Audio's website. This level of control is indeed spot on! will check this out! thanks
B-recluse
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Posted : Sep 29, 2013 13:14
well i train myself to hear freq 's on ear , but start your bass at 30 hz and sweep the filter and till the freq 40 hz and back and just listing and if you hear its right , cut a bit about 250 hz , make a bell and boost it to hear unwanted freq's and mold it gently ,there is also another possibility will send you the link to monitor with voxam spam your kick and bass !
with this set up you can see your kick and bass situation perfect and you see what needs a cut or a boost ! it good for training your self ! and at the end you can do it by ears ! if it sounds good it is good ! hope it helps bro , greetings the stoned raider
I often seem to cut my bass around 35-38 hz or so, using a 2 pole filter, seems to work for me... it really depends on the bass, sometimes I cut with a 1 pole filter around 40hz, but never really above 40... I can't say I use the same recipe every time, because my bass is different often, different tonality, different mix to a different kick... I never use linear phase eq, Colin already said why. I find it very important to have a good transient on the bass, otherwise it becomes mushy and indiscernible all to fast... the other note to take 250hz out as a constant recipe is also much to generalized to me, granted, there are areas there that need notching, but sometimes it's 250, sometimes even 300, depends on the tonality...
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