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Is there any Hardware Enthusiasts here?
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
797
Posted : May 4, 2005 11:16
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They are all made of passive and active components that are hardware anyway you see it.
Resistance is futile... join us or die!
  Me>You |
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sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : May 4, 2005 12:56
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On 2005-05-04 11:16, 14-year old e-tard wrote:
They are all made of passive and active components that are hardware anyway you see it.
Resistance is futile... join us or die!
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join us our you'll be emulated by VST 
roll a joint or STFU :) |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : May 4, 2005 19:28
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On 2005-05-03 03:38, Colin OOOD wrote:
MIDI is a serial protocol running at 31250 baud. This means that each MIDI byte takes 320 microseconds to send. Therefore (assuming running status is used) the last note in a 3-note chord is recieved by a MIDI device approximately 1.2ms after the first note.
If your entire track is coming from a hardware sequencer sending MIDI to a number of devices through one single MIDI cable, it would not be unusual to have, for example:
Kick
Snare
Closed HH
Percussion sound of some sort
Crash cymbal
Bass (monophonic)
Lead #1 (monophonic) + 2 MIDI controllers + pitch bend
Lead #2 (monophonic) + 2 MIDI controllers
Pad (3 note polyphonic) + 1 MIDI controller
... all playing on the same exact beat in the sequencer. This is a total of 17 MIDI messages, each taking two bytes of data. 34 MIDI bytes takes about 10ms to send, meaning that the last data is received by the receiving device 10ms after the first - and will then still take a few ms at least to start generating noise based on that data! No latency?
INDISPUTABLE FACT #1
It is physically impossible for each note of even the simplest chord to be played truly simultaneously when using MIDI over cables. On the other hand, MIDI playback using VSTi plugins is truly sample-accurate and allows the simultaneous playback of as many events as desired (CPU power permitting).
Quote:
| actually, midi ports don't cause any latency unless you use cables longer then 15 ft. and none of my cables are 15ft, simply because there isn't midi cable that long. |
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INDISPUTABLE FACT #2
The length of a MIDI cable makes absolutely no difference to the time it takes a signal to traverse it. Basic physics: electricity travels at the speed of light and to all intents and purposes MIDI signals are transmitted from one device to another instantaneously. It would take a MIDI cable 300 km long to introduce a 1ms delay in the transmission of data. The MIDI spec suggests a maximum cable length of 50 feet. However it is still wise to keep cable lengths much lower than this for reasons of cable integrity and capacitance effects; long cables are more easily damaged and the longer the cable the more electrical effects are likely to corrupt the signal carried on it.
This post is not intended to be insulting or offensive, but to correct some basic misapprehensions evident in your last post.
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Dude, the very same rules of midi apply when you use vsti too. don't they.
anyway we can all go to technical details of midi and it will take us forever to convince each other which is better hardware or software, and me personally i don't see any point in that.
so just to end the rattle, the only thing i guess for me left to do is:
I could send you some of my stuff i done on hardware only, with "full on" midi and tell me if there is any midi latency in there. If there is, i'll switch to software synths right away.
how does this sound?
As for the length of midi cable, i am sure you'll read the midi cable requirements in evry hardware synth manual. The lenght of midi cable does affect the quality of electronic signal transmited through it, it's just longer midi cables tend to pick up interferences from other electronic devices, and that's the last thing any producer might want in his studio or on stage.
www.venomous2.com
www.myspace.com/venomous2
www.myspace.com/asymmetricnoisesyndrome |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : May 4, 2005 19:38
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Hard Sources:
- Alesis Andromeda
- Access Virus B
- Korg MS2000
- Yamaha FS1R
- Korg Z1
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UnderTow,
dude tell me honestly wich of your vsti's sound better or at least like FS1R, Z1, Andromeda and Virus B that you have????
You, not taking you gear out, that i understand, loving your gear and trying to make them last longer i understand and appreciate too. but telling me that computer can sound better then any of those synths you have in your setup, now that's a lil bit pushing it though.
www.venomous2.com
www.myspace.com/venomous2
www.myspace.com/asymmetricnoisesyndrome |
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sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : May 4, 2005 19:40
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man, i can surelly make any of those synths sound worst than any VST 
roll a joint or STFU :) |
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sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : May 4, 2005 19:41
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Lord Leo, are you in any way related with the marketing dept of any hardware synth maker?
roll a joint or STFU :) |
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orik
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
45
Posts :
317
Posted : May 4, 2005 20:03
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : May 4, 2005 20:50
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On 2005-05-04 19:40, sy000321 wrote:
man, i can surelly make any of those synths sound worst than any VST
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and i can for sure make any of vsti sound worst then gm.
it is not about making something sound worse, it's about having more sonic power at hand.
oh and i am not related to any hardware synth maker, but i see that many of you are involved into vsti programing, that explains why some of you defend them so badly.
www.venomous2.com
www.myspace.com/venomous2
www.myspace.com/asymmetricnoisesyndrome |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : May 4, 2005 20:52
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 4, 2005 21:33
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On 2005-05-04 20:52, Lord Deo wrote:
please explain to me, when software sequencer sends midi message (such as note on - note off) to vsti, doesn't it utilize midi protocol???
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No, it uses the VST protocol. 
UnderTow |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 4, 2005 21:35
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On 2005-05-04 19:38, Lord Deo wrote:
UnderTow,
dude tell me honestly wich of your vsti's sound better or at least like FS1R, Z1, Andromeda and Virus B that you have????
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Ok, conclusion of this whole thread: You can't read.
Over and out.
UnderTow |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : May 4, 2005 22:23
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On 2005-05-04 21:35, UnderTow wrote:
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On 2005-05-04 19:38, Lord Deo wrote:
UnderTow,
dude tell me honestly wich of your vsti's sound better or at least like FS1R, Z1, Andromeda and Virus B that you have????
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Ok, conclusion of this whole thread: You can't read.
Over and out.
UnderTow
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you know what man. god bless, whatever.
i don't have to prove that hardware kicks software's ass anytime anyplace. and most of you guys bitching about hardware, well - when was the last time you paid for any of your software? i am sure that majority of your hardware dissers use cracked versions of soft, you can't even support those who program that shit for ya.
Cuz honestly, even you know this, if you had the money you would get yourself nice piece of hardware, and not cracked'n'hacked soft.
and undertow or whatever your name is, i asked you a question, and asked it politely. and you making assumptions about me and doubting my reading abilities makes you look like an asshole.
www.venomous2.com
www.myspace.com/venomous2
www.myspace.com/asymmetricnoisesyndrome |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : May 4, 2005 23:18
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haha Hardware sucks lol
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sold all my computer hardware, works much better without it
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : May 5, 2005 00:59
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Look. What part of the phrase 'sample-accurate' don't you understand? With MIDI over cables it is physically impossible for two events to occur simultaneously. VST instruments, on the other hand, have no such limitation as the audio data from a VSTi is pre-calculated before it's needed and output in exact sync - the timing is accurate to within one sample, hence the phrase 'sample-accurate'.
For an objective view of the limitations of external MIDI I strongly suggest you read this:
http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/midispec.htm
...and click on 'hardware' on the left. It's the official MIDI specification, and is where I took the figures for my calculation of MIDI latency and inaccuracy. Which, by the way, VST instruments do not suffer from. Because they're sample-accurate on playback - something which is physically impossible for external MIDI.
Go on - prove to us you can read, and come back understanding what this document says 
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : May 5, 2005 01:37
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On 2005-05-05 00:59, Colin OOOD wrote:
Look. What part of the phrase 'sample-accurate' don't you understand? With MIDI over cables it is physically impossible for two events to occur simultaneously. VST instruments, on the other hand, have no such limitation as the audio data from a VSTi is pre-calculated before it's needed and output in exact sync - the timing is accurate to within one sample, hence the phrase 'sample-accurate'. |
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if i am not wrong, we were talking about using laptops loaded with vsti's + midi controllers on stage vs hardware. and if your reading abilities are near perfect then you should have known that live performance was the main foundation for all my arguments. not studio production but live performance. in studio you can use dishwashers for what i care. and tell me when you hook up midi controller to the laptop (midi port, usb port, doesn't matter) what protocol is being used? i guess that's midi. thus when using midi controller in conjuction with the laptop, won't the same midi rules apply in this case? so technically when improvising (playing) live on laptop, what difference does the sample accuracy make? please tell me, i see your technical knowledge is beyond mine, so be kind and share some of it.
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Go on - prove to us you can read, and come back understanding what this document says
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your sarcasm is as lame as you are, did you notice that? anyway i don't care, you can shove it up yours for miles.
www.venomous2.com
www.myspace.com/venomous2
www.myspace.com/asymmetricnoisesyndrome |
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