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Is there any Hardware Enthusiasts here?
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piXan
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
107
Posts :
807
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 00:33
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Lord Deo::
you really think anyone sane would bring all of the gear, ure atalking to a party rave. take the time to connect por/audio/midi, and making soundckeck. for a concert when there are a couple of bands playing is fine ,, but for a rave, when most of the time u dont even have the chance to do soundcheck... i doubt that u have ver been in that position, u wouldnt be saying these things. do u have roadies to carry the stuff with ya!! well then maybe u are infected mushroom!!
and wake up to the present dude, theres nothing wrong (in fact is a great way) to do a live act with a powerful laptop, a firewire with dsp and multiple outputs like the motu MKII (which i preferred to buy than any of those syntrhs u mentioned), a midicontroller with tons of knobs and sliders (like the the novation remote) and an incredible software like ableton live 4 and vst... this is my setup and i tell u it workss!!! i improvise in every track on my set... and i can set it up in 5 min tops..
i understand that u miss the good old analog days,, but if Moog himself opened up the door for virtual technology, Who the hell do you think you are to say its inferior.
And to al these people who say that hardware sounds great, that their synths and setups are the best, i wanna say: well show me the results, because i know many artists who use only sofware and is making incredible music and getting released and playing worldwide.... what have u done wirh all ur hardware.. lets see the results!! maybe is not the tool what matters really
bottom line: use what u have and stop bitching!!!
vst is here to stay!!!!
  www.soundcloud.com/elektroakustica/sets/downtempo/ |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 00:46
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On 2005-04-28 22:23, Lord Deo wrote:
FREGLE,
just like i mentioned above, tritons/fantoms/motifs are musical instruments, were manufactured, designed, breed to make music and not to do web design, 3d animation, application development or whatever just like computers do. Yes true that due to the computers processing power virtually almost everything is possible, but again computer ain't musical instruments.
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Oh come on. If you have the right controler and the right software, a PC IS a musical instrument. At least if you have the imagination to see it as such. 
You know there are people that will say EXACTLY the same thing as you do about synth workstations. They say that if it isn't a guitar/piano/violin/etc it isn't a musical instrument. Do you take them seriously? And if your answer is no, do you think people here should take your comments about the PC seriously?
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how many of you lost that precious project of yours, due to the fact that computer crashes? just recently i read the post at this very message board, about some dude having problems with logic 5 corrupting his file. how many of you'd like to something like that happen to you when you perform live? i bet no one does.
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I have had the flash memory in synths die on me. Of course everything was backed-up on the PC thank goodness  . The power supply of my Novation Drumstation just died recently ... in other words, everything can crash/die. Not just PCs.
Actually none of my PCs have ever died. EVER! And I have only ever lost one project file due to my own stupid misstake. (knock on wood ...)
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Although is really computer more powerfull then synth? that i doubt. Computers as such have the latency issue, if i'm not wrong. Workstations don't, and sampled audio data on workstations (motif, trtiotn, fantom), will run in perfect sync with midi data.
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It seems you just don't know much about modern musical systems. Most modern sequencers have sample accurate syncing. That is a few hundred times tighter than MIDI is.
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tell you what i believe though, when i go to the live show, i don't go there for music only, i go there for performance, show, the whole concept of sounds and visuals. otherwise i can enjoy the very same music at home, where there's less crowd, no one pushes and there's no booze or weed limitation.
When i see some dude working his computer (on stage) i personally don't know, if he's watching porn and/or running mp3 tracks with winamp, or if he's really doing something, music wise. it's absolutelly different and uplifting when you see an artist giving his/her 110% working on real piece of musical equipment on stage rather then seeing some dude clicking mouse and standing there like a pole. Stage ain't office, stage ain't place for workers, it's a place for artist, performers. that's my whole point and that's what i believe.
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Now I agree with some of what you say here and many artists just don't have the right tools or havn't made the right effort to make a good performance. I seriously advise you to check out what Abelton Live can do. It isn't called "Live" for nothing.
Check out the demo video: http://www.ableton.com/_common/downloads/MakingMusicWithLive.mov
(In the video he only works with a mouse but you can use a MIDI keyboard to trigger stuff of course).
Obviously a mouse is not a good controler for live work but there are loads of alternatives including keyboards.
UnderTow |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 00:59
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piXan,
first saying an opinion ain't bitching, so why don't you hold your breath and try not to get personal on me boy.
for your knowledge i do take my gear out, and pardon me for not being commercial, distributed worldwide, didn't know that counted for being great. if i was after money and fame, trust me i could cook something commercial in a lesser time than you could fart.
speaking of results, according to you paul van dyke and tiesto got to be the best trance artists ever then. i don't think you can name an artist who makes more money and sells more records then they do. but does it mean their music is great? only for those who know litle about music.
and for your knowledge, moog just most recently released moog voyager, a hardware synth, he could have gone the software way, but he didn't.
if you can't respect opinions, next time try at least not get offensive.
www.venomous2.com
www.myspace.com/venomous2
www.myspace.com/asymmetricnoisesyndrome |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 01:41
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On 2005-04-29 00:59, Lord Deo wrote:
and for your knowledge, moog just most recently released moog voyager, a hardware synth, he could have gone the software way, but he didn't.
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Well he did. Just not with the Voyager. He obviously still sees a market in hardware synths but he _also_ sees a market in software synths. That is how I approach things: A bit of both worlds to profit from the advantages of each.
UnderTow |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
797
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 11:24
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On 2005-04-29 00:23, UnderTow wrote:
And about playing live, it is all about tightness. Even MIDI isn't tight enough for today's brand of psytrance for alot of the sounds. Sure you can play some melodies and pads by hand and of course there are many sounds that don't need to be tight by their nature but give me modern digital timing for today's modern music ...
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Midi is fine. Hardware sequencers use Midi but the results are tight enough. Even the Atari was tight enough ,given that you delayed subsequent midi tracks by a fixed amount. It's modern operating systems that are the problem.
Me>You |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 19:31
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On 2005-04-29 00:46, UnderTow wrote:
Oh come on. If you have the right controler and the right software, a PC IS a musical instrument. At least if you have the imagination to see it as such.
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i did started production on pc, of course back then when i started vst's was something out of scifi movie but still. even when vst-came out and when they hit big, i did try them too. to be honest though, they never appealed to me, i guess it wasn't my thing.
i still have legal copies of cubase 3.7, 5.0, logic 4.0 platinum, 5.0 platinum, fruity loops, but i don't use them anymore. not that i lack the knowledge or ability to experiment it's just i feel more comfortable on hardware.
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I have had the flash memory in synths die on me. Of course everything was backed-up on the PC thank goodness . The power supply of my Novation Drumstation just died recently ... in other words, everything can crash/die. Not just PCs.
Actually none of my PCs have ever died. EVER! And I have only ever lost one project file due to my own stupid misstake. (knock on wood ...) |
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True, shit happenes not only on computer but on synths too. just recently the floppy drive died on my sy77, but it's like 15 years old synth, and through all those 15 years it was abused and heavily used. i don't think pc or mac would offer this kind of prolong reliability though, but that's what i think. and still even with the damaged floppy drive, the synth is functioning just fine.
i wasn't as lucky as you when my pc died, sending all my hard composed killer tracks to hell along for a ride. even though computers are more advanced and more reliable today then they were back in a day, but still they aren't perfect and hard lesson is learned.
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It seems you just don't know much about modern musical systems. Most modern sequencers have sample accurate syncing. That is a few hundred times tighter than MIDI is. |
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maybe lately i am missing those new software advances, but still when you're using hardware controllers, what protocol is being used to manipulate the parameters of the sound real time? last time i've checked, that still was midi. isn't it? besides i don't know if you looked at the specs of motif, triton, fantom and the new alesis fusion, and the sequencing on these machines looks really tight to me. sample accurate syncing ain't new to yamaha workstations, even syncing audio to midi on my cs6x is much much tighter then most software sequencers can do.
cheers
www.venomous2.com
www.myspace.com/venomous2
www.myspace.com/asymmetricnoisesyndrome |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 20:20
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fregle
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
982
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 21:19
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Well, everybody will agree with u that a live performance with one guy standing behind his laptop without even a controller is horribly boring... It would even be less boring if he would turn his back to the audience and would show the screen, or put it on a projector so at least people can see somethings happening...
That's also why i'm such a fan of hybrid systems... PC and some pieces of hardware to complement it, to make it more interesting to look at while still having the power/easeOfUse of a computer, and to give the computer less to do...
don't understand us wrong, we like hardware, we just don't think it's right to turn ur back on computers anymore, they are the future, whether u want it or not...
that does not mean that u HAVE to use a pc, if u like to work only with hardware and achieve better results like that, by all means don't let us force u to use a pc!!
But don't force us to give up our computers either...
we should all respect each others choices, if someone says to me that he thinks electronic music is silly and made by computers instead of people i tell him the same: Don't use electric instruments if u don't like em, but don't expect us to give up our electric instruments too, and don't expect synthesizers to disappear because they won't... |
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satorirazor
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
26
Posted : Apr 30, 2005 12:26
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On 2005-04-29 21:19, FREGLE wrote:
Well, everybody will agree with u that a live performance with one guy standing behind his laptop without even a controller is horribly boring... It would even be less boring if he would turn his back to the audience and would show the screen, or put it on a projector so at least people can see somethings happening...
That's also why i'm such a fan of hybrid systems... PC and some pieces of hardware to complement it, to make it more interesting to look at while still having the power/easeOfUse of a computer, and to give the computer less to do...
don't understand us wrong, we like hardware, we just don't think it's right to turn ur back on computers anymore, they are the future, whether u want it or not...
that does not mean that u HAVE to use a pc, if u like to work only with hardware and achieve better results like that, by all means don't let us force u to use a pc!!
But don't force us to give up our computers either...
we should all respect each others choices, if someone says to me that he thinks electronic music is silly and made by computers instead of people i tell him the same: Don't use electric instruments if u don't like em, but don't expect us to give up our electric instruments too, and don't expect synthesizers to disappear because they won't...
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well, after all it is "Digital Music" we´r creating so a laptop or somekind of computer just got to be involved, Right? 
Imagine if life was a trip, and you where the passanger. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 30, 2005 14:14
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On 2005-04-29 19:31, Lord Deo wrote:
i did started production on pc, of course back then when i started vst's was something out of scifi movie but still. even when vst-came out and when they hit big, i did try them too. to be honest though, they never appealed to me, i guess it wasn't my thing.
i still have legal copies of cubase 3.7, 5.0, logic 4.0 platinum, 5.0 platinum, fruity loops, but i don't use them anymore. not that i lack the knowledge or ability to experiment it's just i feel more comfortable on hardware.
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Well that is all very intersting but you don't seem to be addressing my point: A PC can be a musical instrument wether it suits you or not.
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True, shit happenes not only on computer but on synths too. just recently the floppy drive died on my sy77, but it's like 15 years old synth, and through all those 15 years it was abused and heavily used. i don't think pc or mac would offer this kind of prolong reliability though, but that's what i think.
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The floppy drive of your sy77 IS PC TECHNOLOGY that comes from PC hardware manufacturers. So the PC tech in your s77 lastet through 15 years of abuse. That sounds like a point for PC tech.
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i wasn't as lucky as you when my pc died, sending all my hard composed killer tracks to hell along for a ride.
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Backup backup backup ...
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maybe lately i am missing those new software advances, but still when you're using hardware controllers, what protocol is being used to manipulate the parameters of the sound real time? last time i've checked, that still was midi. isn't it?
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Yes. That is exactly why I think kick/bassline combinations should be sampled. The thing with a program like live is that you can trigger drum loops or anything which will be locked to your project tempo and can be quantize triggered. That is tighter than any keyboardist/drummer.
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besides i don't know if you looked at the specs of motif, triton, fantom and the new alesis fusion, and the sequencing on these machines looks really tight to me. sample accurate syncing ain't new to yamaha workstations,
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I know the specs but that doesn't say anything about ergonomics. I don't think that these workstations are intended for the psytrance market. You just have a zillion times more power and flexibility with a modern computer based audio+MIDIsequencer.
And although the timing might be tight within the workstation, you mentioned several such workstations and other MIDI controlled gear. The problem is the timing between the gear.
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even syncing audio to midi on my cs6x is much much tighter then most software sequencers can do.
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Sorry but now you are talking rubbish. This is plainly not true.
Now just so that no one gets confused here, I have no problem with you using hardware for live stuff but you were criticizing PCs for live work in a derogatory manner. Let me remind you:
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I am hardware, all the way, just cuz doing live show on real thing vs on laptop ain't the same thing.
with hardware you can always improvise, build something new each time you perform: cut filters differently, apply different amount of aftertouch, play on different octave etc. etc. thus posibilities to improvise on hardware are endless as long as your imagination goes with it.
with hardware there's more human expression in the music that makes it live as a sound and as a performance in every aspect, while on the laptops it's all preprogramed - sequenced, repetitive.
Besides, hardware synths, samplers they are musical instruments while laptops are just portalble computing machines a super smart calculators if you will.
Many of you might argue with me about benefits of using computers, but still, i think music should be done on musical instrument and not on some INTEL PENTIUM CHARGED MICROWAVE.
that's my honest opinion as a musician and artist and it's not meant to cause any arguments.
cheers.
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I am just pointing out that you are wrong and ill informed on many aspects of modern day computer based tools for making music live or in the studio.
UnderTow |
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satorirazor
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
26
Posted : May 1, 2005 15:08
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WHAT DOES IT MATTER HOW WE DO IT, AS LONG AS WE LIKE IT? RIGHT?.... 
Imagine if life was a trip, and you where the passanger. |
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Carthago
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
31
Posted : May 1, 2005 19:18
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Why do you useless faggets spend more time arguing about topics like this one than actually making music ?
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br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : May 2, 2005 06:15
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John 3:16 |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 2, 2005 16:47
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On 2005-05-01 19:18, Carthago wrote:
Why do you useless faggets spend more time arguing about topics like this one than actually making music ?
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It is to keep you reading. Obviously it worked.
UnderTow |
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Lord Deo
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
215
Posted : May 3, 2005 01:49
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Well that is all very intersting but you don't seem to be addressing my point: A PC can be a musical instrument wether it suits you or not. |
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Funny, to some people PC can be a girlfriend too, but i never thought to look at it that way.
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The floppy drive of your sy77 IS PC TECHNOLOGY that comes from PC hardware manufacturers. So the PC tech in your s77 lastet through 15 years of abuse. That sounds like a point for PC tech. |
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Well, why stop there, it also uses microchips, also manufactured by pc hardware manufacturers, has flash memory, rom and ram memory too. The point is though, no matter what technology hardware synths use, the main purpose of this synth (just like i said it many times before) is to make music and nothing else.
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Backup backup backup ... |
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Yeah, it's so much easy to say it, like three times in a row, but try to backup after each session, everyday and then tell me how easy it is.
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Yes. That is exactly why I think kick/bassline combinations should be sampled. The thing with a program like live is that you can trigger drum loops or anything which will be locked to your project tempo and can be quantize triggered. That is tighter than any keyboardist/drummer. |
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I am confused here, what's your point? i can sample loops and kicks and whatever, even farts into cs6x built-in sampler, and trigger it from keyboard or built-in sequencer, and i don't think it will be less tighter then on a pc, simply because i've done it like on almost every project of mine.
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I know the specs but that doesn't say anything about ergonomics. I don't think that these workstations are intended for the psytrance market. You just have a zillion times more power and flexibility with a modern computer based audio+MIDIsequencer. |
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Well, just like they say, don't judge it untill you try it. all of those mentioned workstations have ability to be fully expanded, memory, sampler, firewire ports, internal storage + plugin boards that represent different synthesis architecture, so basically within one workstation you can have analog physical modeling board + AFM board + AWM2 synth board + sampler + Effects, vocal processing board, + physical acoustic boards and more and more crazyness, now please tell me which VSTI can handle 16 midi channels, and provides this huge range of synthesis and sonic power, and reliability? Absynth? yes maybe, but to have 16 instances of it running on whatever PC you got there, won't CPU hit at leas the yellow zone if not red??? I have played on Motif ES, and i am not trying to endorse it, but trust me, it is one hell of a music (including trance) production unit.
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And although the timing might be tight within the workstation, you mentioned several such workstations and other MIDI controlled gear. The problem is the timing between the gear. |
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Trust me, all my live gear is controlled from cs6x, and i got no latency issues there, everything is proper. actually, midi ports don't cause any latency unless you use cables longer then 15 ft. and none of my cables are 15ft, simply because there isn't midi cable that long.
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I am just pointing out that you are wrong and ill informed on many aspects of modern day computer based tools for making music live or in the studio. |
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No dude, i am not ill informed, and i could say the same to you, that you being missinformed in the power that most (not all) but most hardware synths hold. Trust me from time to time, just to keep myself up todate on what's going on in sound design field i do too try vsti's but when it comes down to laying trax, my hands are on the hardware. simply because so far i haven't seen any vsti that could make sound i couldn't program on my gear. sorry but this is honest truth.
Anyway, i am getting tired of all this nonsense, my point from the begining wasn't to brainwash any of you, but to show you the reasons why i chose the hardware way, to show you what i believe in. some of you got personal at me, which ain't cool. there are so many things people don'thave in common but it's not the reason for anyone to get offensive.
www.venomous2.com
www.myspace.com/venomous2
www.myspace.com/asymmetricnoisesyndrome |
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