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Is there any advantage to NOT learning a lot about music?
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 6, 2009 20:40:23
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Obviously it is important to know things like harmony, phrasing, structure, etc - those should be basic knowledge for anyone making music.
My question is, is there really any advantage to attaining an advanced knowledge of music (lots of what music theory is)? With the way music is being produced (electronically) it seems more important to understand sound synthesis rather than composition. Being able to create sounds with a synth and give them characteristics through the mod matrix is a huge part of production.
Some advanced knowledge may give you insight into how certain sounds or instruments complement each other, but if you have a good ear this is just as good imo (if not better).
More specifically, does learning more of these advanced techniques lock you into a mindset on how to create music (not saying this WILL happen, but maybe it could prevent you from seeking out other methods - straining originality).
I obviously don't have an answer one way or the other since I'm new to producing and do not have a great deal of advanced musical knowledge, so I wanted to hear what others thought of this. I guess I'm proposing that if we find you only need a basic skill set, then we will have more variations on types of music being produced (some good, some bad).
*Side note about me: I always try to find new ways to do things that are outside the norm (even here in psytrance where, honestly, we all are pretty outside the norm already  )
  http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 6, 2009 21:08
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when you say "advantage," there must be a goal. what's your (ultimate) goal?
i don't see how having knowledge of something is worse than not having it. if you are interested in music, then knowing something about history, sound physics, psycho acoustics, theory (rhythm, melody, harmony, structure, etc), sound synthesis, production (mixing, mastering), how instruments are built (acoustic, hardware, software), and so on, can only give you a greater insight.
now, obviously, we are all different. we operate under different constraints (time, family, obligations, money, IQ?). we have different inclinations (some things come easier, other things seem more interesting). we like/make different music. some music is pretty basic synthesis-wise, but really complex rhythmically. other music is complex synthesis-wise, but really basic musically (structure-wise or melody-wise).
so it's really up to the individual to decide what to spend their time on. each individual area can easily take a life-time to master. but i don't see how learning anything that is interesting to you can be a waste of time. as long as your curiosity is piqued and those synapses are firing, i think it's all good.
https://soundcloud.com/dead-end-dance
https://soundcloud.com/shellbound |
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Obelizk
Amoeba
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Posted : May 6, 2009 21:15
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I've thought about this before. Not in regards to psy though.
I think in psy it's best to know the most one can about every aspect of music.
I mean, there are songs that are just 3 bass notes and a kick with modded sounds and easy 4 note rhythmic melodies (exaggerating), and then there are songs by people who have more 'training' or know-how in music theory...
I think it opens up so many more possibilities to have that music theory background. I guess especially in psy, because to me I see a big connection between psy motives and classical motives, depending a song.
When people who know theory are writing melodies, there's also this more inherent connection between what they want something to sound like and what they write in or record.
Also, people who understand theory understand what notes go together to make something sound the best, if they understand counterpoint.
I could go on, but these are the main things I thought of.
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 6, 2009 21:20
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I totally get what you're saying, I just didn't make myself clear in my initial post.
I was thinking of 2 things. 1 being where should ones time be better spent. This obviously depends on how you learn - I learn by doing, so I'm making productions rather than reading about how to do it.
The second thing I was thinking was that if you are taught a way to compose music or read a book on how to make music, does this put you into a single track mindset. If you read a book on how to make compositions like Mozart, will you ONLY use this method and not come up with your own composition methods? Obviously music is very complex and far from black and white, but wouldn't a sense of "free-forming" aid in creativity (especially in something as inherently free-formed as music production/composition).
You are right that in the end, it comes down to the individual. I always want to learn absolutely everything about anything I'm doing (I'm a knowledge whore), but I don't want to be thinking the same as everyone.
I taught myself to dj in a way that almost no one does. I also dj differently than anyone I know (in my mixing and way I compose sets) and I always get really positive responses to this. I guess that for me doing things in a unique way is something I'm good at.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Kane
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 6, 2009 21:22
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Yeah it's really easy to fall into either over thinking things or becoming too structured..I've heard of a lot of non-electronic artists switching to instruments that they've never played before to try to get away from this. I almost do the same thing by switching the main sequencers and plugins I use constantly. The production quality won't really suffer since I still have all of the technical knowledge I had before, but sometimes it's easier for me to be musically and technically creative with something unfamiliar.
You can't forget that in psy, at least half of the talent and creativity is in the technical side of things. It's just as possible to develop (or get stuck doing the same thing) in how you actuate those musical ideas. It's much more complex, or at least very different, than just playing guitar or drums, where you can have an idea that can be broken down with music theory but there's generally only one way to actually play it. You don't have to build a new snare drum every time you come up with a new beat. 
So there are a lot of people that have this kind of knowledge that understand how to use it creatively, making very "intentional" music rather than experimenting and doing a trial and error type thing. One doesn't really preclude the other..knowing exactly what sound you want and being able to create it is definitely respectable if you can do so without just doing the same thing over and over again, but some experimentation is always a good thing to find a few really good sounds or ideas that you wouldn't have thought of on your own. But then there are the "trial and...like it or not, it's going in" people that just don't understand the concept of innovation.
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 6, 2009 21:26
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It'd be really interesting to hear from someone who had produced for a while, then taken a break to learn more about music.
I think that knowing more about music theory concepts (and the physics of music) is a good thing, but just learning straight up methods might hinder some creativity imo. This is my main concern about "learning too much". http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : May 7, 2009 01:47
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It might be a case of that the grass always being greener on the other side, but I do think that knowledge can end up being in the way sometimes.
I started playing violin when I was five years old and studied music theory for many years, and I also been using synthesizers and sequencers since I was a little child, so I have some 30 years of experience and study when it comes to both music and production.
Many times when I work with people who does not have a similar background I envy them for trying things which I would not think of. It's great to have an idea of what will work since it makes for a smooth and fast creative process, but it's easy to fall into habits instead of experimenting.
Looking from only a psytrance perspective I don't think music theory is that valuable either.
Playing with a band it can really help to know theory just to be able to easily communicate with each other, and composing stuff with changing harmonies theory is a lot more useful. Most psytrance have fixed harmony though and you really do not get that much help from theory when you mainly are making riffs.
In the end of course the negative aspect of knowing theory that I talk about is unavoidable in the long run, because it's really not that much difference between knowledge acquired from studies or from experience.
For example it doesn't matter if you know what notes fit together because you learned scales or by just playing around and learning by experience.
But IMO there is certainly a value in having some innocence when it comes to both music theory and production...so whatever you do make sure you enjoy that while it last.
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : May 7, 2009 02:01
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PsyGalaXy
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 7, 2009 02:32
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roigt0r
Started Topics :
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Posted : May 7, 2009 02:45
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You can't learn too much music theory, period. Knowing the rules doesn't take away your ability to break them; quite the opposite really.
The question is do you need advanced musical theory knowledge to make psy or other forms of electronic dance music. I'd say definitely not...it's the kind of thing that would be of huge benefit and importance if you're writing for a 40 piece symphony, but the returns diminish the simpler the music gets.
You could make electronic dance music as complex as a classical composition, but it would be really unnecessary and might not sound that great anyway. If that's your goal I'd stick to learning production; however as some have mentioned, I'd imagine learning theory can be a way to open up your horizons if you're fairly accomplished as a producer and need something new to get that spark going again.
Either way, the basic theory you'd need to make almost any simple tune could be learned in a few months; using that knowledge intuitively and with some kind of direction...that takes longer. |
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Product_Placement
Product Placement
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Posted : May 7, 2009 06:05
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It is always important to remember, that there is no such thing as useless information and the more you learn the better you become.
I've been producing for 6 years and have been primarily a synthesis/sound manipulation/fx type producer. Im also a drummer/percussionist, which helps alot with rhythm but lacks in melody and musical theory understanding.
Only in the last year have I taken an interest in theory teaching myself piano and guitar. I've noticed that my music has become alot more dynamic having not only great rhyhtm and manipulation, but now is tied together alot more fluently with catchy melodies.
I think it is very important to understand all areas of sound, it is a long journey to get anywhere with it but in the end the results will show for themselves. In reply to your question, no you dont need to know musical theory but if you do your music will definitely become better. |
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Product_Placement
Product Placement
Started Topics :
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Posted : May 7, 2009 06:21
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In reply to your second updated question:
Think of theory not as being restrained by the set way to do things, I can see how you are thinking but it is seriously the complete opposite.
Sure you may have to sit there and learn some pretty boring shit and your thinking that its complete crap and unimaginative, but try to understand that its teaching you principals to lay the foundations for creativity, without this your music will fall to pieces.
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Upavas
Upavas
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150
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3315
Posted : May 7, 2009 09:33
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Remy [POF]
Principles Of Flight
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509
Posted : May 7, 2009 10:25
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for me, the more i learned about music theory and production, the more my taste has become sectarien and the less music i like...
it's quite sad actually i almost don't like anything... there is like a handful of artists in each genre i can stand listening to... 
On 2011-03-08 23:13, moki wrote:
listening only to free music is like having the free possibility to satisfy yourself with thousends of different free sexual acts. |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
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Posted : May 7, 2009 13:54
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excuse me but thats huge crap topic.
its like asking if knowing how to read is in the way of book writer.
so this writer is not influene by other books , his story is very original ok , but it written down in scrambled lines and circles , you go figure it out. (ie no scale).
why i think its the most bullshit is because when you make the great melody almost evey preset sounds good with it and when you dont know you think its all in the synthesis which is only less then half of what really matters.
its like thinking that the owner of the best guitar is the best guitarist , and its not.
do you think if you get now virusTI nord wave korg triton and moog synth while know nothing on music it will end up nice music? maybe nice sound expiriment but thats not MUSIC.
i think your main idea is why trance is so shity this days , specialy in dark. hell i know some people selling tracks and have no clue what is minor scale or what is a scale , and no the fact they sell it dont meen its good , its why so many people leave this idiotic scene
did you see the movie:
Can a 4-year-old paint?
my answer is HELL NO , abstract is nice excapse route but not enough lol
regard the original question its better know nothing then 1-2 scales and "think you know" , but more better to know it all for real. fuck... my brother now doing 4 years uni of music and i promise you all the threads in this forum are not even 1/4 of what he learn in 2 weeks there. no kidding sherlock jazz musicians know something more then trance artists lol... and guess what , when he play with my nord he can tweak extra nice presets too , without being any synthesis genious , only understand the heart of music. www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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