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interperting the PAZ analyzer
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
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5388
Posted : Sep 8, 2004 05:35
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ok so my Waves PAZ analyzer indicates that i have some sounds in the "anti phase" range..
1. is that bad?
2. if so how do i avoid it?
  "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
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EYB
Noized
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Posted : Sep 8, 2004 13:29
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Good question 
Anyone can explain it?
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fuzzikitten
Annunaki
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Posted : Sep 8, 2004 16:04
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*bump*
I've wondered this too. Is it bad for my speakers or is it just unpleasant to hear? |
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snowflake
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Posted : Sep 11, 2004 14:27
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I came across this issue as well and as far as I know, sound in the anti phase range are sounds that sort off "get lost along the way..." I don't think it is bad...
but I'm not sure the information I got is 100% correct as I'm not a sound tech...
So I would like to get a more detailed answer about this one as well...
Out Here We're Stoned.... |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Sep 11, 2004 15:24
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This is my understanding; I am quite prepared to be proved wrong on this!
AFAIK antiphase sounds are sounds that are 180 degrees out of phase between left and right. This means that when the track is summed to mono (L+R) these sounds will cancel each other out and so disappear. Any wide stereo sound (eg. reverb) will probably contain a certain amount of antiphase material, and it is usual to find some antiphase material in any finished track. It's not good to have too much, however, as this radically change the mix when the track is folded to mono (eg, radio, tv, many club sound systems). Also, a large amount of antiphase material can (I think) cause problems when cutting to vinyl.
If you find the phase meter shows large and constant antiphase readings, check the sound in mono to make sure it stays the same. To get rid of it (if you need/want to), you need to decorrelate the L + R sides of the sound causing problems - try adding a stereo chorus.
Like I said, I might be talking completely out of my hat, so if anyone has any better idea of the subject, feel free to correct. Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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FluoSamsara (Oxygen)
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 11, 2004 15:58
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Quote:
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On 2004-09-11 15:24, Colin OOOD wrote:
To get rid of it (if you need/want to), you need to decorrelate the L + R sides of the sound causing problems - try adding a stereo chorus.
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Colin could you explain this a bit better please? what do you mean by decorrelate?
and could you explain what does it mean to have the sound "out of phase" in theory? I know what phasing does to the sound by practice, but I have no idea about the theory behind it, that would be nice to know
thanks |
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ZilDoggo
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663
Posted : Sep 11, 2004 16:46
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yeah, you're right on the spot Collin.,
but my thoughts about this issue are a bit different.,
basically i think that for psy music this is not a very big problem.,
psy is almost never played on radio
and most people who listen to the radio have a stereo set.
you are right about vinyl .,
it still makes sense to have a more or less mono sound for vinyl.,
if there is too much phase difference the needle will jump and the stereo image will get muddy.,
but this can be largely fixed in mastering i think and you could make a separete mix for vinyl anyway.,
but a lot of dj's play from dat or cd and this is a perfect medium for having those weird stereo phase sounds.,
btw. there is another reason for using less stereo .,
if two speakers play (almost) the same thing you get more power out of your system,
that's why most ppl mix their kick and bass to mono.,
also, psychologically, it can be good for the listner to have a definitive mono reference point in the track.,
this is because, usually, when people listen to stuff, they turn their head to face the source of the sound.,
so it's natural to hear something comming from the middle.,
but anyway, i dont think that any of the arguments are realy strong these days.,
also, surround is becoming more popular.,
so i dont realy see why one should NOT use out-of-phase sounds., they have the nice effect to sit outside the mix when used properly an can realy enhance the perception of the sound field,.,
enough brabbling.,
greets.,
aka., |
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ZilDoggo
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Posted : Sep 11, 2004 17:32
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fluo,
when two signals (lets say, L and R) are out of phase it means that they do not move in the same direction at anyone time.
so when one signal is at the top of a wave the other signal is somewhere else in a wave, mayme still moving up or already going down.,
this is just the very basics,
humans can hear phase differences for different frequencies and it all gets kindof complicated.,
but if you consider a sine wave (which is only one frequency) you can see phase as sliding one sine forward or backward compared to the other one.,
phase is measured in degrees.,
so if you have those two sine wave again and you slide one so that the top of one sine is exactly at the same place as the bottom of the other one then they are 180 degrees out of phase.,
they are in fact moving in exactly the opposite direction.,
if you slide a little further so that the tops match again then you have a phase of 360 degrees, which is the same as 0 degrees.,
you can say that these two signals are 'in phase'
they move in sync so that when one wave moves up the other also moves up
the thing is, that if you mix two waves together that are 180 degrees out of phase (so that when one wave is up the other is down) they will cancel each other out!., it's simple mathematics actually.,
lets call the highest point of a wave +3 and the lowest point -3 .,
then when you mix (or add) a wave which is at +3 with a wave which is at -3 you get (+)3 - 3 = 0 !!
that's why out of phase sounds can get canceled when you sum/add/mix to mono., they are exactly opposite so the result is zero
there should be some websites about this subject somewhere.,
you should see them and look at the pictures., they will give you a better understanding of what phase is.,
---
correlation means there is some (mathematic and/or psychological) connection between the two signals (L and R)
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this relation/connection could be that they are always out of phase,. (i use this as an example because that's what we discuss but correlation doesnt mean that the signals are out of phase, just that there is some kind of connection/relation between the two)
in this case this correlation can be unwanted because the phase difference can give problems.,
to destroy this relation (making the relation more random) you could use a chorus to 'blur' the relation between L and R
chorus in general screws with the phase of the signal., it has multiple very short echos that move in time (so you get a lot of sliding waves on top of each other which are sometimes in phase and mostly out of phase resulting in a more or less random sweep of phases)
the end result is that the phase on each side changes a lot and is less predictable.,
so, if the original signals were exactly 180 degrees out of phase then now they have a changing phase all the time., so they are not constantly 180 degrees out of phase anymore,
so the 'connection' between L and R is blurred or even destroyed completely.,
.,
i hope this makes sense
greets.,
aka., |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
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2849
Posted : Sep 11, 2004 17:42
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Very good explained
10 x thanks you guys, this helps me understanding the (not) problem a bit more.
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Sep 11, 2004 20:49
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ZilDoggo
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Posted : Sep 11, 2004 23:13
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glad you like it!
i'm always a bit insecure when i write about technical stuff.,
i could make mistakes and it could be difficult to read/understand.,
so thanks guys,
greets.,
aka., |
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orange
Fat Data
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Posted : Sep 11, 2004 23:42
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it think that from my experience always that out of phase sounds like pads and weird atmospheric sounds sound better and more spacey covering a wider freq range offering more to the track to sound more full and open
but it needs a time to figure it out how can be wisely used because with to many sounds out of phase things can realy realy be messy in your mix!!!
its psy music isnt it ??
so if something is sounding nice and psy why not use it!!!!???
orange
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http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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FluoSamsara (Oxygen)
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 15, 2004 14:59
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thanks for the explanation zildoggo and colin that was very explanatory |
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