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Individual - Master chan levels???
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 15, 2011 00:12:53
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This might be a dumb question but I've been wondering a lot... how do you guys work with individual / master channels...
do you lower your instruments so the master won't clip or do you lower the master and leave instruments at +0dB?
Also what is the best practice for recording hardware synths should I record at 0dB or at my track's level (usually -6dB to -3dB headroom)?
This whole thing began when I was finding it hard to actually see the waveform image on my audioclips because I was bouncing some sounds that seemed too low (-20dB for example) but that's how they fit the mix. So i started reading about all this 32bit floating shit that I slightly understand... I mean I've always started with kick at -10dB more or less and then mix everything around it avoiding clipping the master... but now I just don't know ._.
Thanks for yer time. |
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orange
Fat Data
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Posted : Jul 15, 2011 02:43
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Vermeee
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 15, 2011 08:45
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acidus, u made me think in another question...
whats better guys ? to work in the synth adjustin the level with the gain from the synth and leavin the fader from the synth channel at 0 db.... ? or to work in the synth the most close possible from the fader and adjust the level in the fadeR?
http://soundcloud.com/bgos |
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 15, 2011 13:38
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in case of exporting make it the loudest possible or at the wanted level.
reason - you can alway turn the gain down but to turn it up is a bit more complex.Anyway it really is a minor thing.
as for vermeees question i say it is the same. but it is more accepteble to bring the instrument to loudest possible with some headroom and then to adjust the fader of the mixer.
one good reason is that it is very easy to adjust the gain straight from your mixer  but whatever you choose ...
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Wierd shit happens :) |
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Audiosonic
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Posted : Jul 16, 2011 10:17
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On 2011-07-15 13:38, daark wrote:
in case of exporting make it the loudest possible or at the wanted level.
reason - you can alway turn the gain down but to turn it up is a bit more complex.Anyway it really is a minor thing.
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I second that, for a few reasons
1) The synth sounds may have subtle nuances or details, which will not be recorded/bounced if they play out too low. So better record/bounce the synth as loud as possible.... it's very easy to turn down vol so it will fit the mix again, and you will get the full body of the synth sound.
2) if, at any point you need to boost the volume on a too low clip, you may very well end up boosting a lot of background noise too. Try it: take a very low sample and normalize it. Notice how the quiet parts gets 'boosted' too - ugly noise :S
3) What if you decide to throw an effect on the synthsound An effect works best with lots of input, but if the sound is too low, you'll end up with a bad sounding effect. Much better to have the soundplay in full through the effect, and then turn down volume after.
... i could easily mention some more scenarios, but i just wanted to quickly mention my experiences in this regard as usual it didn't end up being quite as quickly as expected 
Cheers guys |
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knocz
Moderator
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Posted : Jul 16, 2011 17:15
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I'd rather turn all the faders dowwn then turning the master (or a fader) up.
One advice I once received: Imagine you want to make one sound louder. Instead of raising that particular fader, lower all the other. The final result will be the fader you didn't touch will be louder then the rest without clipping problems, but you will have to touch everything else..
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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Audiosonic
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Posted : Jul 16, 2011 17:41
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On 2011-07-16 17:15, knocz wrote:
I'd rather turn all the faders dowwn then turning the master (or a fader) up.
One advice I once received: Imagine you want to make one sound louder. Instead of raising that particular fader, lower all the other. The final result will be the fader you didn't touch will be louder then the rest without clipping problems, but you will have to touch everything else..
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This is true AFTER the track's master level lower the levels in the mixer, but to get the fattest, clearest most pristine sound, it goes without saying that you want it as loud as possible before the mixer.
Keep in mind that this is single tracks we're talking about. what happens in the mixer afterwards is a different deal.
Imagine you have a sound fading in from 0 to 100% over 2 bars... if you bounce this with 50% level, the first half of the fade will simply dissapear, and you will never get it back no matter how much tweaking you do.
If you, on the other hand, bounce the sound with 100% level, then you will get the full fade of 2 bars. You can then do whatever you'd like... turn it down 50% in the mix to only achieve a 1 bar fade OR you could do whatever you'd like, because the sample data is there - it wouldn't be if i bounced the sound at 50% level
Cheers |
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 16, 2011 17:55
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So each time I render should I put my chan fader to 0db? I think it will be a hassle to be doing that then putting it back to whatever value it had to fit the mix.
I also think is not such a good idea to lower all faders instead of rising one unless in a critical headroom situation.
:/ |
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Audiosonic
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Posted : Jul 16, 2011 18:14
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Hehe, decisions decisions everything is a compromise in this trade.. the real deal is what fits your style, workflow and sound...
I'm pretty sure that it won't be too hard to adjust the new track to it's original level anyway, since you still have the original track to A/B against.
Cheers |
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mudpeople
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 17, 2011 12:49
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I try to leave the master chan fade alone and work on individual channel fades, keep them low.
My ideal master level is -6db, I try to keep taht the MAX.
I render at whatever level it happens to be; its easy enough to amplify the waveform after render, usually I save taht for conversion (I use Audacity usually for that, its got some good utilities for post processing).
I sometimes, when mixing down stems in Reaper, lower all the channels at once, if the render shows anything over 0db.
I try to keep in mind the idea that its easy to amplify a waveform to 0db, but one that is clipping is always going to be clipped. (Its fine to clip though so long as its transparent)
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Audiosonic
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Posted : Jul 17, 2011 13:58
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I try to keep in mind the idea that its easy to amplify a waveform to 0db, but one that is clipping is always going to be clipped. (Its fine to clip though so long as its transparent)
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That is not quite correct! Think of a picture with a size of 265*320. If you enlarge this picture to 768*1024, then a lot of noise and pixelation occurs. Why would sound data be different?
You can always turn down volume of a loud wavefile (like shrinking a picture), but if you have a weak wavefile that you need to boost, you will get noise! Thats why they call it signal-to-noise ratio And it goes without saying that the louder the actual signal is, the better is the S2N ratio.. |
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mudpeople
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Posted : Jul 17, 2011 16:21
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well of course, I didnt mean it as an absolute 
But what I was mainly talking about is clipping in excess of, idk say +3db, for longer than, oh say a millisecond, that visibly distorts a rendered waveform. Turning that down will just lower the volume, leaving it smashed. Im speaking of course of rendered digital audio rather than the DAWs live output.
0db is of course the ceiling for a rendered digital audio file, however, DAW live output can play in the headroom without distorting the output, but if it is rendered in any way it is smashed against the 0db ceiling.
And I should also poiint out that Im speaking of only my own work, and I could be illustrating a bad habit that I havent yet discovered, so please dont think Im speaking of 'what everyone should do'
;D
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Jul 18, 2011 00:33
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On 2011-07-16 17:41, Audiosonic wrote:
Imagine you have a sound fading in from 0 to 100% over 2 bars... if you bounce this with 50% level, the first half of the fade will simply dissapear, and you will never get it back no matter how much tweaking you do.
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This is incorrect. The fade-in bounced at 50% will simply fade in to only 50% of the initial level. The first bar will be intact, but will only be 50% as loud as the original version. You will not 'lose' the first bar of the fade; overall S/N ratio will be decreased by 6dB however.
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Audiosonic
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Posted : Jul 18, 2011 11:05
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On 2011-07-18 00:33, Colin OOOD wrote:
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On 2011-07-16 17:41, Audiosonic wrote:
Imagine you have a sound fading in from 0 to 100% over 2 bars... if you bounce this with 50% level, the first half of the fade will simply dissapear, and you will never get it back no matter how much tweaking you do.
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This is incorrect. The fade-in bounced at 50% will simply fade in to only 50% of the initial level. The first bar will be intact, but will only be 50% as loud as the original version. You will not 'lose' the first bar of the fade; overall S/N ratio will be decreased by 6dB however.
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Yea, true... i was trying to oversimplify things, paint a picture The levels ofcourse will be scaled, but you loose half the dynamic range nevertheless, and boosting the volume by 50% afterwards will still leave you with only half the level resolution, a doubling of eventual noise, and loss of fine details in the sound... (bouncing softsynths produces a lot less unwanted noise in soundmaterial than hardware synths does ofcourse)
Thats why i later tried to use the 'picture/graphics' analogy sry for my stupid outbreak! |
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Audiosonic
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Posted : Jul 18, 2011 11:16
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And I should also poiint out that Im speaking of only my own work, and I could be illustrating a bad habit that I havent yet discovered, so please dont think Im speaking of 'what everyone should do'
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Oh man This goes for me too.. I read a lot about music production in general, and i may pick up bad stuff along the way too.
I did produce digitally for some 20 years now (all amateur ofcourse), and before that, I spent a lot of time recording ordinary musical instruments to tape... same rules apply in general though.
That's also what i find inspiring inhere: Everybody chipping in with their experiences regardless
But, i'm rambling here, with no real goal i shouyld really shut up and get to the morning coffee... might even do me good |
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