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how to get a nice bassline
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 20:11
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can't say I've every noticed ACE eating a lot of headroom personally - maybe you're right, I dunno, but generally I've been very impressed with it for bass (I use an LFO as an OSC - I don't think these are bandlimited ... which could have implications, but I could well be wrong about them not being bandlimited)
If the filter isn't steep enough, or gets too near the fundamental freq, then it will incur phase shift on the fundamental freq which can indeed eat more headroom than leaving the very low muck in.
This is easy to see with a steep HP filter. Play a low saw and set the HP at 1 or lowest possible hz, as you move the hp freq up, you'll see that the level meter on the channel rises as you get near the fundamental freq - even though you're attenuating signal - this is phase shift in the fundamental and is very definitely the enemy.
However, I'm not a fan of linear phase for this job as it induces pre-ringing.
As I say, IMO the best thing to do is to use a very steep HP filter (minimum phase variety) well, well below the fundamental freq.
This 'sorts' the very low frequency issue, and doesn't affect the tone.
This is an automatic step for me. Every single bass line I make will have had this done to it.
Although of course, as always, its just my opinion 
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 20:14
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yeah it s exaclty what hapen, the filter is not low or steep enought i think causing a phaseshift that eat headroom , i asked urs if it was possible to check he will do when he have time but i guess not many reported this as a problem so it might just stay like this.. tyrell and zebra dont ahev this so i find it a bit strange it hapen in ace , i though it was a bug at first cause in ace oscillo waveforms look just fine . i hate it cause imo ace is one of the bets plug for bassline but it peak 2 times higher than other plugs for same loudness (maybe with some eq it would not hapend though, or not as much i will check by hp the very low) |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 20:33
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If the phase is shifted in the plugin, I don't think you'll have much joy trying to get it back into line 
I also wouldn't hold your breath on a fix.
As a developer I'll tell you that is exactly the sort of bug we dread.
Fixing it will change the sound of the synth - which means that the synth wouldn't sound the same in old projects if updated which means people don't like it. But at the same time other people don't like it as it currently is coz there is a problem.
Whatever you do or don't do, you are gonna piss off some of your user base.
If you're right, its a nasty place for him to be in - suppose the only way is to release a modified VSTi rather than a patch so that people can run the old version
However, I'm not seeing DC filtering in ACE - the spectrum has peaks all the way down to 0hz without an HP filter.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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kabbalisticvillage
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 20:44
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Quote:
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On 2011-10-15 20:28, Trevon wrote:
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On 2011-10-15 14:05, orgytime wrote:
lol cutting the fundamentals of the bass would totally kill it, its no bass anymore.
cutting the very low end is ok. (~30Hz)
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usually I remove everything bellow 40-50.
note F0. this is a low shelf at 40hz..
at 30hz there's some rumble on this bass (cronox patch) at least on my monitors 
the fundamental top was carved, but the body is still there.
If I raise it one octave, then it is not noticeable, of course. and messing with the fundamental total kills the bass...
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i do the eq the same way..thats what i learned here...but how do u even get a note sound?what i mean is in ur pic ur notes on the piano roll are between C0 and C1..once i go down past 3(with alien303,sylenth1)its done..how do u go so low?
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The Greatest Sophistication is figuring out how not to be sophisticated |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 21:08
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Quote:
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On 2011-10-30 20:33, Speakafreaka wrote:
However, I'm not seeing DC filtering in ACE - the spectrum has peaks all the way down to 0hz without an HP filter.
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thanks for checking it s maybe a usage error of me , with a hp filter it could still have peak down there no?could you look the saw in a oscilloscope plugin just to check the phase shift i m talking about? it could be the waveform that is like this from the oscillator and not the result of a hp filter? |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 21:44
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If it hits 0hz on a freq analyzer ... then it isn't filtered enough ... however, the output waveform from the synth in no way matches what is displayed by the scope which implies something else is going on - but it isn't, in any way, eliminating DC offset or very low freqs from the synth.
At a guess, this could be the result of oversampling in the oscillator, so it could be from the oscillator as you suggest, but without seeing the guts of the synth, that is a complete guess. In truth, I think not, as the internal synth scope shows the effect of filter which means the scope is after the filter in the chain - not the oscillator, meaning that however it is that it ends up so different after the synth occurs after the filter, not the osc.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 21:44
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Quote:
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On 2011-10-30 21:08, PoM wrote:
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On 2011-10-30 20:33, Speakafreaka wrote:
However, I'm not seeing DC filtering in ACE - the spectrum has peaks all the way down to 0hz without an HP filter.
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thanks for checking it s maybe a usage error of me , with a hp filter it could still have peak down there no?could you look the saw in a oscilloscope plugin just to check the phase shift i m talking about? it could be the waveform that is like this from the oscillator and not the result of a hp filter?
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no it s not possible, there is hp that is post ace own oscilloscope |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 21:51
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what urs told me in the email when i asked him if there is a filter to remove dc and causing this phase shift ,is that there is maybe a hp filter but the synth still have plenty of low end and i dont have to worry. he will look at it when he have time as they are very busy. |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 21:58
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low C at 1/32 every 16th note ... quite typical for a bass in psy.
It quite clearly hits 0hz.
You can check for yourself quite easily using a number of different freeware plugins. Schope is useful for this because of its scaling and zooming ability.
You need to put a HP after ACE. .
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 22:01
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strange man , the osc saw look excaclty like one that is highpassed with a steep filter to me, but it seems it s not .. if you look at ace saw waveform in ace scope the saw look fine, if you place a scope after ace and look at the waveform it will look highpassed and eating headroom.
i could be all wrong,it s maybe not a issu at all, i think some analog synth have this kind of high passed looking saw wave too... but strange we dont see it in ace own scope |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 22:07
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That is very true - it could be that there is a HP after the filter but before the amp envelope.
As I said the amp envelope will add sideband harmonics as it is AM.
It could also be that the oscilloscope is completely seperate to the actual function of the synth and its a 'mock up' - that would be very strange, but U-He is a far more able synth engineer than myself and honestly I wouldn't like to second guess his synth architecture ... his osc and filter design is so far beyond mine it makes me feel like I know next door to nothing.
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PoM
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 22:11
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the problem for me with this is that phase shift take lot of headroom in my basslines ,a esm or a moog saw that peak at -10 db , ace peak around -4 db for same loudness... maybe it s usage error dunno ,i turn the lfo as osc and turn the phase knob to the left at 100% to a lp filter and that all,i maybe i should try to process and eq it well before complaining ,getting the low end right maybe the headroom will come back |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 22:14
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If I HP very very steeply as I suggested (96dB for example), using a freq analyzer to minimise the impact on the tone I can get back circa 4.5 dB of that.
It does impact the tone, but not in a way that it sounds worse ... just different.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 30, 2011 22:35
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its probably me that tweaked it in a strange way ,i just tried it again and it s not peaking that much higher than some other synths. |
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Oni Katsu
Li/fe
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Posted : Oct 31, 2011 14:43
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Actually guys, is there a way to effectively get rid of phase-shifting, i seem to have excactly the same problem. Volume, is medium-low in the single mixer. But shoots to the skies, and fucks the sun out of my heaven in the main output.
wth
need to lower the main output by 7db to make it stop peaking to the red on the volume bar.
silly bassline...
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I said I like it dirty, not muddy. |
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