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How to create depth, space in the mix
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 18:31
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One thing I'm not very good at is to create space, room in a mix. Its not that I'm a omplete noob, but I just think there is more possible.
What to do to make the music sound like it would happen outside the speakers and not inside the speakers?
I don't know so many psytrance who can do that, and I feel that I could learn a lot in that area.
Sure it must have a lot to do with Reverb, but just using a quality reverb alone doesn't make it right.
Do you have any tipps in setting up reverbs and other FX to create space, depth and 3dimensionality?
  Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 18:38
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 18:46
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stereo expansion, through the application of *some* chorus modules works well.
I generally run two mix reverbs as well as a delay. One is ambience, and one is a very large and smooth reverb, and that allows me to place elements futher back. A big, big reverb will spread the sound around. If you use it probably more then you might otherwise might, then you may be surprised how effective it can be. As long as there are not to many tops, which smear the sound you can use really quite a bit.
With the chorus unit, the most important thing is that it treats the left and right channel independently and controllably, which will allow you to spread the image more efectively. Recommend metaflanger for this, or if you havn't got that, you can acheive much of the same sort of thing with my singularity plugin, although it is hard on CPU.
A lot of it comes down to writing structure as well, and letting the listener hear just how stereo each sound is, and giving each sound its own space.
IMO of course.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 18:58
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with reverb and delay you have to be carefull cause insteed of creating space they can muddy the mix a lot ! space can come from arrangement equing and smart panning of the sounds imo and there s lot of tricks i would like to learn too, like panning a sound hard left and detune the hard right, equing the left and right chanel not the same,using few ms of delay on one of the chanel, using a fx like a chorus or a flanger only in one of the chanel ,in fact when it dont sound the same in the right and left chanel it often fake stereo widening and make the mix more intresting but it s sublte .(check in mono when doing things like that) |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 19:16
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yeah totally, check in mono *whatever* stereo mangling you apply.
With the reverb thing, reduce the tops and the sub on the reverb, and you will be amazed just how much you can get away with, before you muddy your mix *promise* 
And with the few ms of delay on the different channels ---> this is chorus, and will sound better if you modulate the delay time, so I'd use a chorus eh Particualry a chorus which allows you to modulate to before the original time like metaflanger in tape mode, as this sounds considerably more natural to my ears at least.
In making the mix *big*, panning will only get you so far IMO, coz it needs to be blatting out of both speakers slightly differently to make it sound bigger then just the natural width - but thats probably my incompetence!
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 19:28
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 19:34
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 19:45
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sometimes i ear some mix where lot of verb is used and it don t create space between the sounds(and clarity),to ear a sound far away you need to ear one close to you before, if they are all far nothing is far and clear(maybe ?)so i think the contrast between the sounds make a mix more intersting and clear.(contrast between the left and right , or with dry and wet fx so the sounds don t sit at the same place in the mix and it create space cause it s not static ) |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 20:05
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Quote:
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On 2007-09-28 19:45, PoM wrote:
sometimes i ear some mix where lot of verb is used and it don t create space between the sounds(and clarity),to ear a sound far away you need to ear one close to you before, if they are all far nothing is far and clear(maybe ?)so i think the contrast between the sounds make a mix more intersting and clear.(contrast between the left and right , or with dry and wet fx so the sounds don t sit at the same place in the mix and it create space cause it s not static )
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+1.
I think we are on two sides of the same coin 
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 20:20
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 20:31
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Thanks.
I think with the stereo width I'm ok. I know a couple of tricks, also the static delay.. (didn't use it for a while, thanks for remebering) also some eq with separate control for left and right is cool etc.
I think the comment about the CONTRAST is very smart. I also thought of that, but if I try to do so I'm usally finding the stufff with no or little FX do not fit with the ones with more FX.. so I put FX on all of them.. then it sounds cool, but not deep.. :-(
As for the reverb, I'm also usualy using two to three reverbs in the sends. mostly a short, a medium and a long one...
But when it comes to setting them up I'm a bit lost. Length, colour, high low pass all clear-.
But how about using the early reflections and the predelay in order to create depth etc.? I know what they are, technicaly, but I can't use it practically.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Sep 28, 2007 20:38
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Quote:
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On 2007-09-28 20:20, Colin OOOD wrote:
Quote:
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On 2007-09-28 19:34, Speakafreaka wrote:
I know of several chorus units that allow you to set modulation depth of 0 ms. The point is moot.
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Not really. Chorus units don't generally allow you to specify a separate delay time for each side of the stereo image. Anyway my main point was that chorus does not automatically sound better than a static delay on one side; they're very different effects (to me, anyway  )
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Yes, they do. That's what the spread or stereo function is.
As to your main point, fair play.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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splinter
Splinter / Kode Six
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
578
Posted : Sep 29, 2007 08:54
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Sep 29, 2007 14:14
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depends on what you mean exactly by "depth"
from the technical view much comes simply from reverb and delay. especially the quality of the reverb is significantly important because not many maschines/plugins have a satisfying algorythm that realy creates a true feel of a room - 90% of the vsts i have seen just add something like a "Shhhhhhh" which just sounds horrible. spend your money/hardware in to a real good reverb and you are on a good way to create depth -sadly to say i havent found out a good way to subsitute a high-end reverb with any nice tricks and hacks - nothing can reach a good reverb.
delay is pretty simple - it needs less complex algorythmics therefore you can get good delays everywhere.
from the music/production view depth also depends on the pure eq/mix and (!) dynamics (its the dynamic especially microdynamic which makes the sound coming out of the speakers!). because this goes hand in hand with your reverb. to create something deep - i have found out - less is more (also here)
because true depth is nothing you can hear from my point of view - you should leave enough room in your track to trigger the listeners phantasy - its sometimes better to reduce the gain of an element nearly to zero just to make the listener not beeing sure if he is listening to that element or if he is just imagine it by himself.
like arne schaffhause once said in an interview:"creating the untouchable"
about the dynamic thing:
you need a nice compressor and a nice transient-tool with intelligent parameters you gonna make your elements just 3D.
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Sep 30, 2007 15:33
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I've remembered the other reason why I EQ out the tops of the long reverb.
If you are running a typical LP lead which you want to fade in and out, and have varying depth in the mix, typically, you will want the point where the filter is most open to be the most forward in the mix, the one nearest the listener - so you don't want the uppers to smear.
So if you EQ out the tops of the reverb signal, as you close the filter on the synth, in effect you are hearing more more of the reverbed sound as you loose that which cuts through the mix and are only left with the portion of the sound which is effected - which now sounds much further back.
Also, another old trick is to stick a unit capable of chorus effects before the reverb in the signal chain, as this can thicken up the sound and push it out wider. Can't say I've ever been a great fan, but it is a well known technique to getting a bigger sound.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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