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How neuroscience can help us understand music
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : May 1, 2007 02:48
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astrotec
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
193
Posted : May 1, 2007 03:04
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thats just a load of scientific mumboe jumbo. |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
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84
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981
Posted : May 1, 2007 15:29
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There are some Tannoy speakers I have heard in an Audiophile shop with so called 'Super Tweeters' that go up to 100Khz
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/01/teacs-tannoy-st-100-super-tweeter/
Inaudible frequencies can affect the body in other ways, such as making hairs vibrate if very high or make organs wobble if very low!
However, making music that extends this far (especially in the dance genre) is almost pointless because the systems that the songs eventually get played on aren't going to extend that far. |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : May 1, 2007 16:32
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In december I was present when the recording for "shmau" was done. (1 person vocal + guitar).
When it came to equalizing the engineer used a passive analog eq to add like 3 db of 20khz (highshelf).
I found it quite senseless, since I know most peoples Frequencyresponse goes not more than 16khz. And anyway on the CD it will be with a sample rate of 44khzh, and a bandwith of max 20khz.
He admited that on the CD the effect will be even more inaudible, but insisted that this really adds "air", and gives somehow more room. He said its being perceived mostly emotional... So far he said he couldn't find a digital EQ who can do it as he wants it...
Well, he is very good, but this really didn't sound logic to me.. and since I didn't hear a difference anyway I thought, why not?
In the evening he burned to CD what we already had, so that we could listen to it on our way home and at home.
In the morning the next day we listened to a couple of track at home and somehow found that there is something wrong. It wasn't how we expected it to sound. We blamed the speakers and tried other ones, finally my Dynaudio BM6a. All the same, we didn't know what it was, it was very subtle, but we somehow just didn't LIKE it as much as the day before. It's our mood, we heard the songs too often, thats normal, we thought.
When we were at the studio again the same day, we said that we have to do something with the recording because we didn't like it that way. He asked us what exactly we meen and played one of the songs... we were puzzled... it sounded all right... ok so it was just our mood in the morning.. anyway we went on. recording. Finished it and were happy with the quality.
Then a couple of days later he called and told us he found out what the problem was in the first mixdown: the EQ was only active while listening here in the studio! It wasn't on the mixdown...
I couldn't believe it.. those 3dB on 20khz?
Actually I still don't really believe it, but it was the only difference.
Recently I've been reading a book about mastering. it also states that pushing above 18khz adds "air" and can (if state of the art equipment is used) make a recording sound more pleasant.
I think it's getting very esoteric in that area, and my experience could be a coincident. But I will keep my ear open.
 Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : May 2, 2007 16:16
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It is good to keep in mind that with our 5 senses we perceive only a tiny part of electromagnetic spectrum (less than 0,5%). What we perceive as sound, touch, taste, smell and color is in fact that tiny part of spectrum perceived by our brain. Our senses are limited and so is our perception based on our senses.
But our body is an electromagnetic receiver and the receiver is our DNA. Even frequencies that our senses can not capture still affect our body and mind. For instance, we can't see, feel, hear, smell or touch X-rays but they affect our body quite seriously. Same is with gamma rays, micro waves, ultra violet and infra red. So there is no reason to assume that other inaudible frequencies don't affect us. In fact... it would be an exception if that was true.
Only arguable topic is how can we make use of it (or can we use it at all) but that is hard to discuss without proper study.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : May 2, 2007 16:19
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This research has been pretty much refuted by other scientists.
UnderTow |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
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787
Posted : May 2, 2007 16:55
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On 2007-05-02 16:19, UnderTow wrote:
This research has been pretty much refuted by other scientists.
UnderTow
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References?
What kinds of experiments were used to refute this study?
Do you have any specific criticisms of the protocols this study used?
Explain youself. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 2, 2007 17:23
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Quote:
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On 2007-05-02 16:16, shamantrixx wrote:
It is good to keep in mind that with our 5 senses we perceive only a tiny part of electromagnetic spectrum (less than 0,5%). What we perceive as sound, touch, taste, smell and color is in fact that tiny part of spectrum perceived by our brain. Our senses are limited and so is our perception based on our senses.
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Indeed. Keep that in mind when in the studio. 
If we can't sense it, and can't perceive it with our brains, the rest is mute as far as making music is concerned.
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But our body is an electromagnetic receiver and the receiver is our DNA. Even frequencies that our senses can not capture still affect our body and mind. For instance, we can't see, feel, hear, smell or touch X-rays but they affect our body quite seriously. Same is with gamma rays, micro waves, ultra violet and infra red.
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First infra red is a seperate issue because we DO perceive it. For the rest, we mainly perceive them because they cause dammage. If no dammage is caused, we don't actually perceive X-Rays or gamma rays or whatever.
Do very strong electromagnetic forces affect us? Possibly, but within the field of audio, they are irrelevant as the speakers we use don't cause any of these forces in any noticable amount. (Including the marketing gimmicks from Tannoy).
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So there is no reason to assume that other inaudible frequencies don't affect us. In fact... it would be an exception if that was true.
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Nor is there any reason to believe that they do! The fact that some frequencies at very high amplitude do affect us in some way is no evidence that other "unmeasured" frequencies at much lower amplitudes do affect us.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam is no proof of anything!
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Only arguable topic is how can we make use of it (or can we use it at all) but that is hard to discuss without proper study.
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Once you have decided to believe in fairies, then yes, the only arguable topic is wether they can be coerced to work for us or not. 
The first arguable point is wether there is anything to use in the first place. If we can't hear it, and there is no evidence that we can perceive it, it is most likely a complete waste of time and a cop-out to the real issue: How to make the audible spectrum sound good to our ears.
UnderTow |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : May 2, 2007 17:32
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Quote:
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On 2007-05-01 16:32, subconsciousmind wrote:
When it came to equalizing the engineer used a passive analog eq to add like 3 db of 20khz (highshelf).
...
I couldn't believe it.. those 3dB on 20khz?
Actually I still don't really believe it, but it was the only difference.
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Adjusting an analogue EQ at 20Khz will have effect on the phase of the signal at frequencies well below 20Khz and depending on the slope of the EQ, it will also affect the amplitude of signals quite a bit below 20Khz.
UnderTow
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
485
Posted : May 2, 2007 22:05
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Quote:
| First infra red is a seperate issue because we DO perceive it |
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I think what shamantrix is trying to say by perceive is that you don't need to see it or hear it to perceive it |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : May 3, 2007 02:45
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Hey underTow, I still anxiously await hearing the details about this being "pretty much refuted by other scientists"..
This thread is not about extrasensory perception, it is about modulation of the subjective qualities of percievable stimuli by non-percievable stimuli.
I will be very sad if this thread gets highjacked by debate over hippie mumbo-jumbo when the topic is about a controlled experiment published in a mainstream journal.
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : May 3, 2007 03:34
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Quote:
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On 2007-05-02 17:23, UnderTow wrote:
First infra red is a seperate issue because we DO perceive it. For the rest, we mainly perceive them because they cause dammage. If no dammage is caused, we don't actually perceive X-Rays or gamma rays or whatever. |
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Please READ posts before arguing. My claim was that we DON'T perceive X-rays but they DO affect us and make damage. So regardless to the fact that we're not aware of X-rays (when they are present) they affect us quite seriously. Same is truth with gamma rays, micro waves etc. So it is reasonable to assume that the rest of electromagnetic spectrum also affects our body.
Do not confuse electromagnetic fields with electromagnetic spectrum. Beside their name there is no any further similarity.
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On 2007-05-02 17:23, UnderTow wrote:
Do very strong electromagnetic forces affect us? Possibly, but within the field of audio, they are irrelevant as the speakers we use don't cause any of these forces in any noticable amount. (Including the marketing gimmicks from Tannoy). |
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Just to put your statement into perspective here's a link that you'll have tough time discrediting
http://www.raven1.net/uncom.htm#LIDAM
Note the references to many known scientists, institutes and very VERY detailed descriptions. Also notice that this informations date from more than 20 years ago but have only recently been declassified. That is to say that this technology is already obsolete while you still don't believe it exists
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On 2007-05-02 17:23, UnderTow wrote:
Nor is there any reason to believe that they do! The fact that some frequencies at very high amplitude do affect us in some way is no evidence that other "unmeasured" frequencies at much lower amplitudes do affect us. |
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Well, I find it hard to believe that people design technology that does not exist and that it is possible to patent such non existing technology. Here is a list of few patents and you are free to check out how they work but most of the time you will keep running on the term ELF or extremely low frequencies.
U.S. Patent 5,159,703 – SILENT SUBLIMINAL PRESENTATION SYSTEM.
U.S. Patent 5,507,291 – METHOD AND AN ASSOCIATED APPARATUS FOR REMOTELY DETERMINING INFORMATION AS TO A PERSON'S EMOTIONAL STATE.
U.S. Patent US5629678: IMPLANTABLE TRANSECEIVER – Apparatus for Tracking and Recovering Humans.
U.S. Patent 6,014,080 – BODY WORN ACTIVE AND PASSIVE TRACKING DEVICE.
U.S. Patent 5,868,100 – FENCELESS ANIMAL CONTROL SYSTEM USING GPS (Global Positioning Satellite) LOCATION INFORMATION.
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On 2007-05-02 17:23, UnderTow wrote:
Once you have decided to believe in fairies, then yes, the only arguable topic is wether they can be coerced to work for us or not.
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You see... "to believe" is equal as "not to know". Since I know what I'm talking about I don't have any believes about this subject.
You have a system of believe to defend and you assume that you know everything there is to know. Now be my guest and say that entire text from link is science fiction and assure your self that someone has made that up just to scare the hell out of you
ps: psycosmo asked you a question and I would like to hear the answer also.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : May 3, 2007 04:40
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OK just to be clear, sound is not electromagnetic radiation (all light, visible, infrared, radio etc is). Sound is a form of mechanical energy, the vibration of air. In any case, it seems to be equally true for both that the dont need to be perceptable to have effects on our bodies (including our brains apparantly).
@Shamantrixx, I'm not sure what your question was... you mean the one about the usefulness of it? I don't know the full answer to that, but at very least it would seem it could lead to some interesting artistic experiments in sound design. Would those experiments lead to more interesting music? I dont know, I guess I posted this in hopes that some of the music makers would get inspired to try stuff with inaudible frequencies. |
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
485
Posted : May 3, 2007 14:22
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| I guess I posted this in hopes that some of the music makers would get inspired to try stuff with inaudible frequencies. |
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Well this is impossible for most of us who have standard monitor(20-40 to 20khz)
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : May 3, 2007 15:02
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science has always thought it knows everything and always claimed this or that REALLY is the way the say, years later there have allways been new views.
When the first trains came the most famous doctors and psychologists claimed that travelling at this speed (more than 20mph) , or just looking at it will cause brainmalfunction.
Science is good, but it were dreamers, believers like Einstein who found the real great stuff.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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