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how live is a live act?
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elesdifrend
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
159
Posts :
161
Posted : Sep 10, 2007 16:20
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Wowowowowo.......... I was the one who opened this topic and I never imagined to open such a heavy discussion. I got my answers to my live question......but i can not understand what is this hating israeli thing that has spinalpuppet going on in fact against the whole psytrance culture. Psytrance is not a bunch of kids, and if so, i rather prefer the innocense of children, then to be so hateful, psytrance is a counterculture movement, Psytrance is a way of life, and this is probably something you will never understand. This has nothing to do with nationalities, so forget about israelis or anything like that, We sail all in the same boat!!
Thanks to all the rest of the people who have been so kind to take the time to comment positively and creatively about this topic!! I liked the Tom cosm chapters, very usefull!!!!
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Sep 10, 2007 18:59
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Quote:
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On 2007-09-10 16:20, elesdifrend wrote:
Psytrance is a way of life, and this is probably something you will never understand. This has nothing to do with nationalities, so forget about israelis or anything like that, We sail all in the same boat!! |
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Sorry but I almost burned my self with coffee laughing at this utter "I ware pink glasses and world is so funky and full of jazz" viewpoint. You really need to check how the world looks like before boarding us all on the same boat Noah  
NHF... we all have a right to our point of view regardless of how little indications there are for it.
 "It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 05:28
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Shamantrixx,
you got me thinking, is "spinalpuppet" your alter-ego? are you a troll??
somehow the tone of the posts and writing styles gives me that feeling. sorry in advance if I am off....
however your 'almost burning yourself with laughter' at the previous poster's what I would think are good words could be seen as a projection of your own negative energy upon yourself. in fact had you burned yourself, that would have been a karmic lesson..
you are right though, as someone said awhile back 'Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one..'
that the world is not a perfect place is a fact, but it can only get better with a positive outlook, and positive energy. this is a time where the lines are being drawn - choose which side you want to be on, and what frequency you wish to attune yourself to- lower levels based on fear and power, or higher levels based on love and trust
if this interests you, you should check out Gary Zukav- I think he would give you some nice insight also on the current evolutionary trends
peace&love!  Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 05:44
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another tip on lives- the more equipment the better!
I always get tickled when I see lots of gear, and some analog synths.. conversely nothing bores me more than a 'laptop live' without even a controller. I saw Sesto Sento once like this. I was totally blown away with the CD, and definitely respect the sounds, but the live was a little anticlimactic. Since it was also only one member, I have to guess the guarantee wasn't so good... which could also be a motivational issue for some groups..
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 10:41
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Ok, true, Its obvious, wherever there is shit going on here -> Shamantrixx is there.
When surfing through his posts it becomes clear. The antagonists always change but his reproaches stay the same, and mostly he doesn't react to what others say but responds to things which where never written. Admited, guessing from that he could have some problems with projecting his own behaviour to others and/or understanding english .
But spinalpuppet his alter ego?? wow, that would really be crazy.. I doubt it. Spinalpuppet has many posts, and normally such alter egos are only pulled out of their drawer in few situations.. in this case it would rather be schizophrenia, which I doubt...
I think its really cool to see the flags here, just to see where people are located and to have an idea in what cultural environment people live, which helps me understanding.
But "hating" whole countrys. not differenciating individuals and nationalities... thats really so extremely lame... almost unbelievable.. therefore I could really believe that such a person doesn't even exist in such a place... which supports the alter ego theory.
About the live thing... I remember, There have been discussions in other sections, less artists involved, about if this or that live act was live or not.. incredible how people insisted that some well know liveacts where live even though for savy people it was obvious that it was not..
now here it is the question... in the artists section... the possibility for interested audience to learn the truth about the fact that most live acts lie about the fact how live they really are.. and the whole point is diverted... really sad thing.
So to summ up for all interested non artists:
HOW LIVE IS A LIVEACT?
HOW LIVE IS A LIVEACT?
HOW LIVE IS A LIVEACT?
MOST TODAYS PSYTRANCE LIVEACTS DO NOT PLAY LIVE BUT PRETEND TO DO SO.
BUT IT IS NOT REALLY FAIR TO EXPECT THEM TO PLAY REAL LIVE SINCE ESPECIALLY FOR SINGLE PERSONS IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO DO SO, WITH THIS MUSIC. HOPEFULLY YOU GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO BE ON STAGE WITH THEIR MUSIC ALL THE SAME.
BUT THERE ARE SOME LIVEACTS REALLY DOING A LOT OF STUFF LIVE, BUT FROM WATCHING THEM, AS A NONTECHNICAL AND BECAUSE OF THE MANY "LIERS", "PRETENDERS", THIS IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE. ALLOW THEM MISTAKES AND UNPERFECTION BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT MAKES "LIFE".
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 13:59
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On 2007-09-11 05:28, the daleks wrote:
Shamantrixx,
you got me thinking, is "spinalpuppet" your alter-ego? are you a troll??
somehow the tone of the posts and writing styles gives me that feeling. sorry in advance if I am off....
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you're not just off... you're paranoid as well.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 18:21
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no not paranoid, just a hunch, but there's a fine line between paranoia and something else... what was it?
I do apologize for the misdirection... I was just so shocked to see such a post, it made my senses go haywire. and you have ranted politically about conspiracies and shit, so I just thought it was possible.
I should not mistake your chaotic good intentions with a heart gone cold. glad its not true
sorry bro, and much respect
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 18:36
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We can all get carried away from time to time as I also often do. I respect your posts more than you possibly think that I do... so don't worry
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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jivamukti
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
21
Posts :
342
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 18:45
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Quote:
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On 2007-09-11 10:41, subconsciousmind wrote:
MOST TODAYS PSYTRANCE LIVEACTS DO NOT PLAY LIVE BUT PRETEND TO DO SO.
BUT IT IS NOT REALLY FAIR TO EXPECT THEM TO PLAY REAL LIVE SINCE ESPECIALLY FOR SINGLE PERSONS IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO DO SO, WITH THIS MUSIC. HOPEFULLY YOU GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO BE ON STAGE WITH THEIR MUSIC ALL THE SAME.
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I don't care if they don't play live, but I hate con men who pretend to play live. When rain dries, clouds form.
When clouds moisten, rain forms. |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 18:51
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| BUT IT IS NOT REALLY FAIR TO EXPECT THEM TO PLAY REAL LIVE SINCE ESPECIALLY FOR SINGLE PERSONS IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO DO SO, WITH THIS MUSIC. |
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Bullshit. If you have the skills to write trance you have the skills to perform. It's ONLY laziness that stops people bouncing a track down into 8 stems and a few MIDI parts, making clips out of them in Live, adding a couple of VSTis to play the MIDI stuff for live tweaking, adding a couple of send FX and two mastering effects to the main output, getting a controller with plenty of knobs and buttons to trigger and tweak stuff (in addition to the little MIDI keyboard they already have) and having a whale of the time on stage rearranging and fucking with your own tracks. If I can teach 12 year-olds to do this kind of thing then there's no excuse for a 25-year old to stand there and say "oooo can't do this, it's too hard and I might make a mistake". LAZY. It's the little mistakes that tell people there's actually a person behind the machines.
Quote:
| HOPEFULLY YOU GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO BE ON STAGE WITH THEIR MUSIC ALL THE SAME. |
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By all means - as a DJ. Putting 'Live' next to your name tells people you're performing as a LIVE MUSICIAN. That's what the word 'live' means. Many people who write psytrance can't play a musical instrument to save their lives - and why should they, the music doesn't require you to - but to pretend you're a musician rather than a composer/producer/DJ is a lie. I have no problem with acts like Eskimo who make absolutely no pretense to play live; if every press-play-and-dance DJ put as much effort into their performance as he does I'd love it.
Quote:
| BUT THERE ARE SOME LIVEACTS REALLY DOING A LOT OF STUFF LIVE, BUT FROM WATCHING THEM, AS A NONTECHNICAL AND BECAUSE OF THE MANY "LIERS", "PRETENDERS", THIS IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE. |
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Impossible to see, but more than possible to hear. And when the crowd hears you playing an arpeggio, and sees how it's really difficult to play and hurts your hand and you don't always get the timing exactly right, and hears and sees you cranking up the cutoff towards the end of a rise, and hears that it's very different from the last time they heard you play that track, there exists the possibility of a connection and reaction from the audience that far surpasses anything you can get from a pre-rendered set.
Quote:
| ALLOW THEM MISTAKES AND UNPERFECTION BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT MAKES "LIFE". |
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Of course! Mistakes are allowable, even encouraged if you learn from them. Blatant and continued deception for personal gain is harder to swallow.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
104
Posts :
1047
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 19:32
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On 2007-09-11 18:51, Colin OOOD wrote:
If I can teach 12 year-olds to do this kind of thing then there's no excuse for a 25-year old to stand there and say "oooo can't do this, it's too hard and I might make a mistake". LAZY. It's the little mistakes that tell people there's actually a person behind the machines.
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So true!!! I know ppl that prefer playing live as a "pre-sequenced live" than "dj live"(just warped tracks, without any sequence. So u can choose the tracks realtime)... Why?? Cause u can might make a mistake... I understand that u need to be much more careful.. Bu as Colin said, that´s the part of the job!
LOADING... |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 20:15
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Colin,
1: I agree, very often it is lazyness and fear. The ways of playing "live" as you mention them are doable for 12years old but not suitable for everybodys music. A lot of the music for example lives from the precision and perfection or even production quality including a mastering. For many it would just destroy their music if they did live stuff. Furthermore the amount of time consumed for that hobby, especially if speaking of single persons, is immense.. One should not forget that not as normal musicians we here also engineer our music.. as others learn an instrument we learn to produce.
I have just finished a song, which I would never in my life treat as you mention or did myself for playing it live. Its as I did it in the computer and under no circumstances I want it different. If I wanted to play it really live I had to play 16th in 145Bpm and thats what I call extremly difficult.
2: I never said that putting live behind a "hidden" DJ is ok. All I say is that also artists who are unable, too lazy, too afraid, too stupid... should have a platform to present their music. At least I want to hear a set with only their music, even if it is "press play".
I absolutely agree the terminology would better be changed... but since this is a long way to go. I'm happy if they at least stop pretending.
3: Not impossible to hear... I would hear it.. you would.. but 95% the audience don't hear it and don't see it.
I once had a liveact and for some reasons my MPC2000 went crazy and stopped play once in a while after a loop. If that happend I had to reset the loop and play it again.. which I did in time.. so that it sounded a bit musical... it got worse and worse and it ended in a weird silent break of 1/2 bar after every 16bars... Nobody noticed.. whereas I felt my music destroyed.
4:I really understand your point. OOod is an extreme in all this. As live as you do or did, in this scene, is a "pole". On the other side there is press play and pretend to be oood...
I would love all to be as live as you or at least me. But thats unrealistic.. realistic is, that at least the pretending stops, so that people, even though they are still labeled "live", can see the difference.
Just to confirm einstein who said "two things are eternal, the universe and the human stupidity" and come back to 1) and make my point of view clear:
Here some pictures of a liveact of mine in 2000 with the same setup somebody asked me if I could play a song of XY during my liveact.
cables:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch/scm/bilder/LiveAct2000-3-small.jpg
the view of the person asking for the song:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch/scm/bilder/LiveAct2000-1-small.jpg
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch/scm/bilder/LiveAct2000-4-small.jpg
And how crazy I must have been to carry my whole studio up to the top of a mountain.
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch/scm/bilder/LiveAct2000-2-small.jpg
So you can think what you want.. but besides all the compromises I did by writting and producing all my music without any computer with live play in mind in the first place, I also built cases, soldered cables etc. etc. I'm definitly not lazy nor afraid. But some songs I just don't play live, cause it is impossibly difficult. so whatever 12year olds, cowards, or lazy or stupid guys you know. I'm none of them and there is music that is too difficult for me too play live.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 20:57
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1. I never suggested that you have to play an instrument in your liveset though. (For your information and as I have said before, we play our instruments over playback of pre-rendered tracks). All you need is to have some interaction with the music, something to justify your being on stage with a laptop rather than some CD decks. And if you're on top of your game in terms of studio production (which you should be for your tracks to be considered good enough for you to be booked to play live anywhere) it really does only take 2 plugins on the master output to get a reasonable mastered sound; I've shown people how to do this for large festival sets before. Like I said though your production has to be up to a certain standard for this to be the case. But really, the only manual dexterity you need to play live psytrance is to trigger a scene in Live somewhere in the beat before you want it to start (not difficult even at 150 bpm), and to tweak a knob in the same manner as you did when you were writing the track. I think even you could do that You don't even have to bounce down stems; just load the whole track into Ableton and set up a few clips containing the major sections - you now have the ability to play with the arrangement of the track as much as you like. Who knows, you might even come up with an arrangement that works even better than the original!
2. Cool, we agree And as I said above, I have nothing against 'press play' live acts such as Eskimo as long as they are honest about what they're doing and concentrate on giving a good show; it's those who are embarrassed about it (because they know they are doing something wrong) and pretend, that need to think about what they're doing IMO.
3. Personally speaking I play for the people who appreciate what I'm doing, not for those who don't, although if they also enjoy what we do then I'm happy. I also do it this way because it's easier (internally) for me to do my best at something rather than do something half-heartedly.
4. I'm not on this thread to compare what we do with others. It's the mislabeling of press-play sets as 'live' that's half the problem for me. As you said, most people don't notice the difference so even if the artist is blatantly just dancing on the tables without touching the laptop, if it says 'live' on the flyer then you can guarantee that some people will come away from that set thinking there was live music being performed. Which there wasn't. It will take a change in policy by promoters to solve this issue, which will be problematic because everyone wants to be billed as 'live' even if they know they're not. You can take a couple of extreme examples and show how impossible it is for everyone to do it that way if you like, but the fact is that everyone is capable of injecting a little liveness into their sets if they put their minds to it... and it only takes a little to make a big difference.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Sep 11, 2007 21:11
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1: As its for me, two plugs on the outbus have done it so far.. earlier, as in the pictures I lived with nothing like this at all. I admit that was a bad argument. But the precision and perfection still remains.
Tweaking a filter really doesn't make it live does it? I mean that I even do in the song I mentioned, but that I don't consider live anyway.
If such simple things are enough for you to deserve the label "live" then I agree. Everybody can do that and it is easy.
changing the arangement really is impossible for some songs since there are too complex breaks etc. 80% of my liveact is built that way, my whole two albums were all done this way, i really know the borders of rearranging clips and loops live and there just are songs where it is impossible for me otherwise the composition would die. On some songs I'm working for several months to perfectionize the arrangement and all the rearranging I could possibly do i did during this time.. sometimes after that there is no change.. I'm too picky
4. Sure the promoters etc should go over the books, but here we are artists, and the thing I want to say here: stop pretending.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Sep 12, 2007 11:02
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Quote:
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On 2007-09-11 21:11, subconsciousmind wrote:
changing the arangement really is impossible for some songs since there are too complex breaks etc. 80% of my liveact is built that way, my whole two albums were all done this way,
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ups, that was a bit unclear...
with "that way" I ment by rearranging loops and clips live. not "too complex to rearange".
I've never worked a lot with computer till this year, I was born a loop and clips rearranger
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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