... and that brings us to the everlasting "motive debate" where we always conclude that advertising "live" on the flyer justifies the entry fee to be higher than fee for simply dj sets. Since both artists and promoters often care more about gigs and earnings more than about what and how are they going to preform it's hard likely that promoters will enforce any change to current situation. The change will occur when and only when people start being more critical and start to choose not to go to the events where fake live acts are sold for big money.
That's exactly where places like this forum kick in. Sharing informations about fakes and real live acts will hopefully educate people. Because even a fool minds being held for a fool once he realizes that someone is making a fool of him. At that very moment we actually gain a little wisdom and next time we make better decisions.
The video from Tom is important exactly for that educational aspect. Once we have informations widely available the change is already knocking at the door. This is really a great time to be alive "It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity
diskOtek
Entek
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Posted : Sep 2, 2007 21:03
check antony rother,he's the only one i ve seen perform live+sing along.without any laptop or pc,just hardware!
it may not be the music u like(cause it's electro)but its surely performed LIVE!
Alias
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 2, 2007 22:54
Antony Rother is not good example for live performance
psytrance with all sub genres is much more complicated than electro....
i was in party when he performed live...didnt saw any laptop.....very nice "live" i must add
but his music is very repetitive ....in most of his tracks he have same endless arp.....like another electro sample loops cd!
i think this is one of the greatest electronic live shows ever!
Jean Michel Jarre live in moscow
phhhh why not , give example of the most crazy show ever been done , and tell that users of this forum aint that good just give me the money he use for lights and lazers only for production of hole party i promise u wouldnt be disapointed.
with the prices and numbers that we talk about its useless to compare 1000000$ show to me or you , who might come with laptop a synth and in the good case scenario something extra like vocoder or cool midi controler.not to mention i cant afford to hire 5 musicians to play with me for less then 400$ a gig.www.sattelbattle.com http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
I remember when I was a kid and first started to notice that those bands in the TV shows stand behind unconnected keyboards, there were no cables or mics close to their guitars and the singer just had his mouth closed but I could still hear him...
Whats the point in that? A ok, its the commercial TV world, its all about pretending etc. etc. its normal there.. the audience there doesn't care about being lied to.
So I'm always stunned when I see the same happen in psytrance... VERY famous liveacts jumping like mad behind laptops, playing on the keyboards of unconnected synths, turning eqknobs on unconnected channels of 16channel mixers fed by a two channel audiointerface and at the same time being contentrated on looking concentrated as if it was extremely difficult...
I don't care if a liveact plays live or not.
I don't care if a liveact just presses play on his laptop
BUT
I find this "pretending as if it was live" extremly lame and I'm so surprised and disappointed that this is the majority and the majority of the audience really BELIEVES it!!
I think if a liveact is too lazy, uninovative or bad keyboardplayer to at least do a little live stuff in his set this is completely OK, but then, at least, he shouldn't pretend as if it was otherwise, but dance, have fun, motivate the crowd, whatever, be himself, but for sure not pretend..
I need there should be some sensitizing been done with organizers and crowd. so that they stop to believe that there is really "live" play when there isn't but at the same time accept, that it is quite hard to do otherwise for one man live acts. and that "liveacts" mostly just come to "present their music".
I already seen some orgs writing "live show" for liveacts who just do "show" and "live act" for those who do musical live stuff.
look here:
you can see very clearly which channels of the mixer are up.
Then watch on which channels knobs are being tuned... I think he is really good in was he does and really doesn't need to pretend like this. His stage presence would be all ok without that pretending.
We all pretend that we are something that we're not. Most of the time we call that individuality but that boils down to finding your style or to say roll that you can play in life. Even under that level we pretend to be separate from everything else when it's obvious we're not.
I agree that not all pretending is the same. Pretending to be a separate beings enables us to have all sorts of abstract human structures, language etc. Pretending to be doing something when you actually don't do anything is another story, but it's hard to draw a line between those 2 modes of pretending by means of intellectual discussion. Only working method for distilling those 2 modes is the criticism of audience. That sets the line and most of the artists will invest only as much of effort as the audience expects them to.
So you're right, but that perspective will lead us nowhere.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity
sham: to draw the line between the two modes is extremely easy. Working method is to contrast what impression is been made to what is being done. In reality this may be difficult since a confronted person wont give us a honest answer when we are gathering facts for the contrasting, but in theory, on an intellectual level this is as easy as solving equations.
Furthermore a "Fake" live act, as you mention it is what? where is the line there? its the same.. a fake live act is "fake" because there is "pretending" of "live".. so you actualy arguing against yourself.
But you must know what leads us to where and what we all are doing, since you are obviously by far the most adult, educated and wise person here. so I bow from your holiness and hush.
On 2007-09-03 16:22, subconsciousmind wrote:
Furthermore a "Fake" live act, as you mention it is what? where is the line there? its the same.. a fake live act is "fake" because there is "pretending" of "live".. so you actualy arguing against yourself.
You really have to develop right hemisphere of your brain. Point is about educating audience because they set the criteria. In that spirit I've wrote you:
"So you're right, but that perspective will lead us nowhere."
So what exactly was I arguing? You're projecting again.
In case you have difficulties understanding words that actually means that I AGREE with you but from perspective of educating audience lamenting about artists pretending will not help. What could help are educational examples like from that guy Tom.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Sep 3, 2007 17:41
What would help more would be honesty from artists. This would mean that incorrect information doesn't get spread around in the first place. Also I think that getting to this point would be a more efficient use of time and energy than educating the entire audience, since there are far fewer artists than trance fans.
Sham, Why don't you write a psytrance school book and go to party to lecture the audience with it?
Lesson one of shamantrix psyschoolbook "fake liveacts":
Some LiveActs are "Fake" liveacts, others would say they "pretend" but this can't be applied because there are two different modes of "pretending" which can not be held appart... so we have to go back to "fake" liveacts which are so because they do not actualy play live.
lesson two of shamantrix psyschoolbook "what is playing live"
Playing live is to.. humm wait.. hmm.. you know.. lets just say.. its not playing live when its fake. and it is fake when they just press play on their laptop and the music comes out all finished and they do as if they would actually lively influence the music even though they are not.. which is called pretending which.. hum can't be applied here.. see lesson 1.. hum oh dear..
lesson 3 of shamantrix psyschoolbook "audience are all stupid"
and this is why you have to read lesson 1 and 2 and ..
Sham, its ridiculous. Do you really think there is a solution for this? "educating the crowd" maybe possible with basic and essential things like where to put trash and how to behave with drugs or so (if at all) but certainly not with this subject.
All I say is that I personally, my humble opinion, in my eyes, from my point of view (get it sham?) don't like when people lie to me and others and this fact is more important to me than if its really live played or not.
I don't know if there is a solution. this place here is for artists, so I agree with colin, it maybe good to sensitize a little here. but 0.1% audience will ever read forum threads like this. and only those who are deep into psytrance and already critical are in such forums anyway. no chance to reach the audience.
orgs could start to declare better that would help too...
And if sham would work on his book and start his workshops at parties... lol..
On 2007-09-03 17:41, Colin OOOD wrote:
What would help more would be honesty from artists. This would mean that incorrect information doesn't get spread around in the first place. Also I think that getting to this point would be a more efficient use of time and energy than educating the entire audience, since there are far fewer artists than trance fans.
Shame can be a good incentive for this, I think, especially when the financial advantages to lying are as great as they are.
I agree with notion of shame being excellent "tool" for changing this widespread live bullshit propaganda. Nevertheless, it's kind of unreal to expect that we'll make any use of it. If you look at the how world functions it becomes obvious that "shame principle" does little good in politics, economy, mainstream music scene etc. There are many artists, much more than gigs, and when shame falls on one artist some other will get the chance. The same thing we see in politics. One goes away and another fills his place. Rarely replacement is any better than the "original" figure and with time we replace the replacement. This mechanism of change could be described as "innocent until proven guilty" and it is the slowest way to change criteria.
Another thing is how could we possibly induce that "shame factor" if audience has no understanding and has to take your word for it? As you surely know, for each post that accuses certain project for faking we will have one post claiming that it is not a fake. So uneducated auditorium will have a hard time making a decision and most likely they will keep in the middle ground.
Another thing that may or may not be the most efficient tactics is that I like the idea of making a change by setting an example rather than throwing shame and accusations on others. It's harder to ignore the example than it is to ignore the accusations.
@ subconsciousmind: as long as you think about "crowd" as something separate from your self we have nothing to talk about. Only way to change anything is by raising the level of consciousness and providing widely available informations.
It's in the human nature to learn new things, recognize new patterns, solve puzzles and see meaningful shapes in utterly random marble patterns. So people will always learn new things... it's just a matter of arresting their attentions that's mostly oriented to TV soaps and shopping. And that's where we (artists, promoters, producers, record labels and music consumers) can play our little part in this effort. And yes... drugs could help with attention deficit disorder which is exactly why they are baned while most popular sports advertise alcohol and cigarettes.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity
sham, why don't you just admit that you talked bullshit?
here an example why I don't take you serious:
Quote:
@ subconsciousmind: as long as you think about "crowd" as something separate from your self we have nothing to talk about. Only way to change anything is by raising the level of consciousness and providing widely available informations.
Thats just so typical for you.
Who said that I think of the crowd as something separate then myself? I just took up YOUR words "educating the audience". I never brought that "audience" and "educating" thing up in the first place, since I find the whole way to look at it needless. The only reason why I picked it up was to make fun of you because I found it so idiotic.
Saying that I would perceive myself apart from the audience is your prejustice and interpretation (as you do sooo often and I have told you so often).. and furthermore the very funny thing is you speaking of me "projecting"..
You say something, I repeat it, then you say something about me based on what YOU said.. and say that I would project something...
Man, sham? don't you see it? you are completely out of line.
If that "projection" applies to somebody it is you. Look, I show you why:
You bring up "educating the audience" "educating people". Then you say that, because I repeated it, I would think of me something separate from "crowd", but it was you using those words.
And even after having brought that up, telling me I would etc. you talk about "uneducated auditorium" as if you would have the power to decide who is uneducated and who is not, since you are certainly not part of it.. so arogant..
Obviously It is you projecting yourself to me. The traces are all over the place. You must be so ignorant or stupid not to see it if you understand Jung.
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Sep 4, 2007 00:49
[quote]
On 2007-09-03 21:13, shamantrixx wrote:
Quote:
Another thing that may or may not be the most efficient tactics is that I like the idea of making a change by setting an example rather than throwing shame and accusations on others. It's harder to ignore the example than it is to ignore the accusations.
the daleks
The Daleks
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Posted : Sep 4, 2007 05:55
play nicely kids - think there is a pattern developing here.. break the loop with kindness (although someone is going to have to take the first, difficult step)
kudos on the links for the videos! food for thought! Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
