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how do I get my mid & highs to that commercial sound?
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john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
47
Posts :
263
Posted : Feb 1, 2006 19:49
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On 2006-02-01 15:41, Inner Demon wrote:
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On 2006-01-31 18:47, john c wrote:
well the louder your final mix is, the more powerful your song will be and the more dynamics you will hear. I agree at first the balance is important but then its important to make sure you are utilizing your headroom as best as possible, eliminate conflicts so you can increase the volume as much as possible without clipping. The average commercial dance tune is abotu -5RMS average I believe.
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Why would a loud mix make it more powerful?
In the end you're going to master the thing as close to 0dbFS as possible anyway.
In my world a loud mix is usually a messy mix because there is rarely enough headroom and the risk for clipping without you noticing increases.
I'm not sure what you mean by utilizing the headroom best.. yes u should eliminate conflicting frequencies but it is important to simply have the headroom there - it makes for a more spacious mix.
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im not sure of the technical explanation but louder without distortion and without squashing of course is always better. the louder it is, the more the frequencies come out at you. the point of headroom is that you can make your volume much louder before your song is clipping. Im bad at explaining this but its just common sense to me. under ur viewpoint, why even eliminate conflicts, when you can just lower ur master volume to fix clipping issues. See what I mean? |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Feb 1, 2006 20:52
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I dont touch the master fader at all, its at 0 and i adjust volume for each channel, i dont see the point of using the master fader.. can anyone give me a good point?
and how can you not notice clipping in digital audio?
anyway read this and think about if its a good idea to record at so high levels. very good paper on a very important issue..
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/0dbfsdigitalplayback.php |
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Inner Demon
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
321
Posted : Feb 1, 2006 23:33
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john_c: Ok, I think I see what you mean although a technical explanation would convince me more. Say we apply a limiter in the mastering stage to bring up the overall level of the tune. Are you then saying that applying the limiter on an already loud mix will introduce less distortion than if the mix is lower in level? Is it really noticeable anyway?
You have to weigh that against (IMO) the fact that mixing loud is more difficult and error-prone. By keeping my mixes at a relatively low level i think its easier to make sure every sound gets its required "space".
I never touch the master fader and I don't understand your last point: frequency conflicts and clipping issues are two different things. Why on earth would lowering the master fader fix a frequency conflict?
New Era Scientist: Don't see the point of using the master fader either. However, don't remember the explanation but I believe clipping can go by unnoticed depending on the setting of the output fader on the synth and the respective channel fader... there was a thread about it here not so long ago.
Point was that this is unlikely to occur if the mix isn't very loud. If you find the thread (too lazy now) and what I'm saying is totally wrong, please correct me. |
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john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
47
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263
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 00:53
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On 2006-02-01 23:33, Inner Demon wrote:
john_c: Ok, I think I see what you mean although a technical explanation would convince me more. Say we apply a limiter in the mastering stage to bring up the overall level of the tune. Are you then saying that applying the limiter on an already loud mix will introduce less distortion than if the mix is lower in level? Is it really noticeable anyway?
You have to weigh that against (IMO) the fact that mixing loud is more difficult and error-prone. By keeping my mixes at a relatively low level i think its easier to make sure every sound gets its required "space".
I never touch the master fader and I don't understand your last point: frequency conflicts and clipping issues are two different things. Why on earth would lowering the master fader fix a frequency conflict?
New Era Scientist: Don't see the point of using the master fader either. However, don't remember the explanation but I believe clipping can go by unnoticed depending on the setting of the output fader on the synth and the respective channel fader... there was a thread about it here not so long ago.
Point was that this is unlikely to occur if the mix isn't very loud. If you find the thread (too lazy now) and what I'm saying is totally wrong, please correct me.
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actually thats not what im saying at all. u r under the presumption that the master fader should stay at 0 (which i should start doing really). to me, everything is relative in sound volume when i begin to produce. I mess with the master fader depending on how loud I want to hear my music. The 0 on the fader doesnt have significance to me yet (maybe it should). So as im writing, when my stuff starts to clip, I reduce the volume substantially to save my ears from hearing distorted sound. Then when im done writing, I start really Eq-ing and Compressin, and then trying to see how loud I can get the master fader up without clipping. Now this has nothing to do with the fader being at zero because maybe some of my VSTi's are very very loud and maybe theres plugins that boost them even more. So sometimes I can get a -10RMS average with the fader being at like -15 sometimes! So my point was, given Relative volume and NOT keeing the master at 0, its very important to then get the master fader as high as possible without clipping. MAYBE i should stick ith leaving the master fader alone and only worrying abotu the plugin volumes. Sounds like a good idea to me. I will try it. |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
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3709
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 01:19
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Inner Demon - yes i know what you mean.
In that case ill agree that it can slip by un-noticed..
john_c - "under ur viewpoint, why even eliminate conflicts, when you can just lower ur master volume to fix clipping issues. See what I mean?"
this is what triggerd me, and i really didnt get the connection either, between clipping and frequency conflicts.
with Inner Demon´s reminding that a synth can clip internally and still output a signal which shows no singn of clipping in the mixer path it would be nice to know how to analyze that output.. i know that strapping on a waves plug have showed clipping by those meters, but in the cubase mixer everything seems fine, i should find that project and see if a plug like inspector shows that clipping if i strapp it on that specific channel.
do you remember the name of that thread Inner Demon? 
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john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
47
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263
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 01:35
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On 2006-02-02 01:19, New Era Scientist wrote:
Inner Demon - yes i know what you mean.
In that case ill agree that it can slip by un-noticed..
john_c - "under ur viewpoint, why even eliminate conflicts, when you can just lower ur master volume to fix clipping issues. See what I mean?"
this is what triggerd me, and i really didnt get the connection either, between clipping and frequency conflicts.
with Inner Demon´s reminding that a synth can clip internally and still output a signal which shows no singn of clipping in the mixer path it would be nice to know how to analyze that output.. i know that strapping on a waves plug have showed clipping by those meters, but in the cubase mixer everything seems fine, i should find that project and see if a plug like inspector shows that clipping if i strapp it on that specific channel.
do you remember the name of that thread Inner Demon?
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that thread was started by me actually:
http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/80286/forum/2
u r misunderstanding me. Frequencies clashing means you run out of headroom FASTER and therefore, u have to keep ur volume LOWER in order for ur track to not clip. Whether you are messing with the volumes in the plugin itself or the master volume, the less frequency conflicts you have, the more loudness u can achieve before distortion and clipping.
its quite simple really. Suppose u play 1 bassline sound, turn up ur Vsti for the bass as loud as possible until your song clips, now bring it back so the song just barely DOESNT clip. Now, put another bass sound on at the same time, and ull see in order to avoid clipping, u will have to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce both bass volumes for ur song. |
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Inner Demon
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
321
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 05:25
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Ok, I follow what you're saying john_c. I'm not under any presumption really, I deliberately leave it at 0 because I mix as I go along and it's good for reference. I.e. I take care of clipping as it arises, I dont leave it til mixing stage. I gather you work in a different way but hey, each to his own. But why don't you just lower the volume on your soundcard instead of messing with the master fader if it hurts your ears? To me it seems more natural to take care of clipping at the source, not at the end of the chain..
Interesting that you say this though, it never struck me that you could just leave the plugin volumes and take care of it that way.
Regarding freq clashing I misunderstood you, you're completely right - of course it will lead to clipping faster.
My only point from the start was that even if your final mix is low, say -12 or something, it will still sound great after mastering as long as the balance is good. But if you say that a loud pre-master mix is better I'll take your word for it. The reason is basically that less squashing has to be done later?
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cavedave
Troglodytes
Started Topics :
15
Posts :
132
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 05:58
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On 2006-02-01 07:30, john_c wrote:
tsabeat: i dont understand how u make rules like make sure the kick/bass are not -5db before exporting. What if they much higher but the master fader happens to be much lower than normal. Isnt it all relative? What am i missing here?
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Set your masterfader on 0.0dB to get as much bitdepth as possible. Cause if its like -2db, it will sound poorer.. maybee not to all ears. but they say its like this, my old teachers at school.
bom
 rulla runt bland mjuka kuddar |
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john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
47
Posts :
263
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 07:12
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innerdemon: while i was arguing my point that you can do things in a different way, I do believe now that ive read what u said, that ur method is just a better way of working. So im going to do what u do and leave it at 0.
troglodyte: yeah now that i think about it , i think ur absolutely right. I am going to completely change the way I mix my tracks.
Thanks a lot guys, its been very helpful reading this. |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
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3709
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 17:19
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I agree, a helpfull thread indeed!
now i understand what you mean with frequency conflicts and clipping, john_c...
and its a good point, though thinking too much like that could make a thin mix with lots of loudness... but of course it depends on what you are after, i think this is a perfect place to say "less is more" and with that i mean, each sound should have their frequencies that makes them sound good(not cutting them just so you can gain loudness)
I.e if you have a lead which sounds great, but it interferes with your bass, you can choose to sort the bass out or the lead, the question is what are you after and which technique sounds best...
This is just a simple example...
loudness is not everything, soul is more. and i think you understand what i mean with soul in this case.
that a sound sounds full.
A analogy would be, if you brew some coffee and think, i make the coffee a little weaker in taste so i can drink more.... or you think i brew some good and tasteful coffee and just drink a few cups, cause it tastes better...
just some thoughts  |
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texmex
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
189
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 18:24
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On 2006-02-02 05:58, troglodyte wrote:
Set your masterfader on 0.0dB to get as much bitdepth as possible. Cause if its like -2db, it will sound poorer.. maybee not to all ears. but they say its like this, my old teachers at school.
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Actually, if you're exporting the mix to be mastered, set the masterfader so that the output doesn't clip. If you use 24-bits or more, the peak can be even low as -5db and you will still have plenty of bits in the output.
If you're exporting the master, set the masterfader so that the peak is at 0db or near it. If you use a master limiter, you can set the masterfader to 0db and set the limit to 0dB or -0.3dB in the limiter. (Though some limiters such as Kjaerhus Classic Master Limiter has only the threshold for the limiter. Output will be peak 0dB). After mastering you shouldn't touch the signal level anymore because it's optimized to the max db (0dB or whatever it is).
Anyway, you should work at 24 bits or more, and in the final master convert it to 16 bits. This way you don't need to play with the headroom just to ensure effective use of bits. |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 18:44
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Many good records are destructed by bad mastering, too much of everything... it really reflects how we humans think in this industrial world.. haha
i think ill add some extra mayonnaise to this burger.. mmm ohh damn i got a heartattack... how the hell could that happen too me...
or
i think ill add some more bass to this... mmm
ohh fuck what happend i blew my eardrums... how the hell could that happen too me...
we are a bounch of greedy fuckers who has no limits when it comes to MORE... the only limit is destruction.. |
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texmex
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
189
Posted : Feb 2, 2006 19:30
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One thing to remember is that the loudness of the audio signal affects the frequency response of the ear. So listening a song at 50dB and 90dB will sound different, a bit like it was eq'd.
I believe the recommended/optimal listening volume is something like 85dB... |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Feb 3, 2006 10:55
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On 2006-02-01 07:30, john_c wrote:
tsabeat: i dont understand how u make rules like make sure the kick/bass are not -5db before exporting. What if they much higher but the master fader happens to be much lower than normal. Isnt it all relative? What am i missing here?
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if your kick and bass much louder then -5db (group peak) and u use the master fader to fix that u probably get lots of basses in your track and little mid-high. that was your problem so here is good way to fix it try it.
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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