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Help a new plugin development with new ideas....
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : Mar 26, 2007 19:29
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Hi people,
One day I was beginning to mix a track and some ideas came to my mind. I m the kind of people who believes that personal day to day use lead us to solutions. Some solutions are worthy some are not.
So I remembered about a fabulous eq article from a drum and bass artist that was once posted here. I m attaching the article so that people can read it, and then help this topic to lead us to a totally new tool concerning the mixing process:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/e922vl
The concept basis:
1 - mixing usually is task that asks for putting together elements such as instruments frequencies, volume, depth (reverb), and panning.
2 - although using ears is the main path, spectrum analysis helps us a lot to notice unwanted frequencies, that maybe our monitors or ears didn’t t told us about.
3 - I m assuming cubase as host, once everyone knows it or has tried at least a couple of times. We have to go and come back opening a lot of small windows at mixing time, and that sometimes is a really annoying to me. When we have a complex mix to do, we can have so many active channels to mix…that s really too much time consuming.
So, at the article there s a very interesting comparison of the mixing process with filling a box. So let s talk about a plugin that will give us some tools to help us to fill the box. Btw, maybe the name of the plugin should be “Mix Box”. What do you guys think about it?
How would that work?
1 Mix Box would be a plugin to be used at mix bus
2 – we d have spectrum analysis (like voxengo s span) on each final insert slot for each instrument
3 – each of these spectrum plugins would send the information of each instrument track to Mix Box t the mix bus
4 – Mix Box would be a place where all information would be gathered in way to help us visualizing everything we want or need to mix the instruments…
How shold the plugin look like and behave?
Though question….basic idea:
1 – you click the mix bus insert slot where Mix Box is and open its window. Then you see each instruments channel information, such as pan, volume, spectrum analysis, depth. Each instrument can have it s own color to the frequencies spectrum so that when we want to analyze how 2 instruments are behaving when played together, we can see in a clear way it s freqs in different colors and better notice the fighting freqs to avoid masking.
2 – Built in effects: we should be able to add / alter pan, reverb, delay, compression and limiting
3 - we can solo, mute (enable or disable) any combination of instruments channel we want. This way we can compare the channels from small amounts until the final global mix of instruments…So I can compare only kick and bass, lead and bass, bass and pad, pad + bass + kick., etc.. We choose the active information coming from each instrument to the plugin.
4 - we have small windows for each instrument spectrum freqs and a bigger global spectrum visualization window to see the final details all put together regarding freqs. The important is to be able to see it all inside the same plugins window: the global and each of the active instruments freqs we re trying to compare.
5 – we should be able to eq each of the individual instruments telling the plugin which region should the instrument be or not, based on our visualization of its spectrum color at the global spectrum window. Like in the article, we d assign the instruments freqs regions in way to find the proper space for each one, without fighting one against other and masking it.
6 – we can add reverb and delay from a send mode. That means that we d be able to send each instrument to the fx channel already in use at our project, and not adding individual reverb t each instrument annoying the cpu.
7 – we can have several kinds of visualization to the instruments, such as volume faders only, freqs spectrum only, depth only, etc….the important thing is that we can see each instrument in smaller windows and all of them together at bigger window at same time..
8 - On the global spectrum analysis window, we d see each instrument freq region in different colors. We should be able to narrow or wide the freqs regions the way we want. Each instrument would have left and right arrows that can be moved in real time, altering the freqs distribution …
9 – the plugin could even suggest freqs correction concerning the conflictive freqs found among the instruments on comparison…
10 – Each instruments would have a complete list of effects to be inserted such as compressor, limiter, eq (l and h pass filters, low, low mid, mid, high mid and high freqs). Also reverb, delay and modulation can be used via send option…
11 – The important here, is to lt us view as much information together as we need, without needing to move to many different windows…so we can mix almost everything here…at the same plugin…it should have its own effects but also let us to use our own plugins from the brands we enjoy
Basic resume: each instrument send information t the plugin on master channel. We can assign, alter and visualize any combination of instruments, its global freqs and effects. Also we can shape and sculpture their sound as we wish in real time. We can see each instrument freqs individually in its small window and at same time we can see in different color each instruments freqs range at a global visualization windows and shape their range through arrows.
Practical example:
Mix time: we have 20 channels, between drums, lead, bass, fx, etc..we open Mix Box at master channel insert. We can see all instruments small freqs in small graphics, once it s receiving info from each instrument channel. We assign color to them. Each one has its volume fader, freqs spectrum, effects to be added etcc…we solo Bd and bass channels. Compare their freqs, eliminate the unwanted freqs. We see them at global mix xpectrum in a bigger frame inside this same window where we see individual instruments. So we go on soloing and choosing the channel we feel like doing until our mix is more well balance. I believe some of these ideas would save us time and also make things more properly done….hope you agree…
So let the discussion and new ideas come to this topic. The goal is to develop this concept, once you believe it d be handy for mixing stage…. once you believe you d use or try it….
If you know plugins developers, invite them to help and suggest here…or maybe produce something like this…
The only thing that matters here are the ideas...I don t care about owning nothing or making money at all....hope you helpers agree on this..
obs: there s plugin named space boy that uses this concept, but not such in a complete sense as I wondered...
check it out here:
http://www.elevayta.com
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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5380
Posted : Mar 26, 2007 19:44
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With a 20-channel mix (less than half the number of channels many people use to make a track) you'll use all your CPU and more just on FFT analysis. Plus 'clashing' of frequencies is a subjective thing, and a mix where no instruments overlap each other would sound very strange indeed.
Personally I don't think it's a good idea. Sorry. It would be interesting to see how each sound contributes to the spectrum of the whole mix but you can do this anyway with one analyser and the solo button... sounds to me like you want to be developing your own DAW, not just a plugin!
That's just my opinion though, and I'm sure many will disagree. Good luck with it if you choose to pursue it - let me know if you need a beta-tester    Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : Mar 26, 2007 20:19
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Quote:
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On 2007-03-26 19:44, Colin OOOD wrote:
With a 20-channel mix (less than half the number of channels many people use to make a track) you'll use all your CPU and more just on FFT analysis. Plus 'clashing' of frequencies is a subjective thing, and a mix where no instruments overlap each other would sound very strange indeed.
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Collin
1 - I use voxengos span in each of my 40 tracks per project, eq them all and never crashed my cpu.
2 - I also apply effects in the ones I need such as compression limiting.
3 - I usually have around 15 vsts in midi tracks full of effects and nothing goes wrong. I don t agree. ]
4 - Clashing frequencies like the space boy does through spectrum analysis is a great tool, and most of producers use. You might only likke to use ears. i don t. I use spectrum analysis all the time. Not only my ears.
5 - if you have 50 tracks projects is not that nice to look for individual spectrum for each one of them...I don t think so...
But your opinions are welcome. But I think its time to vsts comunicate between channel to share information and save us time. That s my main point.
btw, Have yo ever tried the space boy?
Some of the concpts might be doable, other not. But the concept itself, in my opinion is really helpfull. |
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : Mar 26, 2007 20:23
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Maybe it could be more simple. Only spectrum analysis from each channel gathered into master bus plugin, and eq settings for each instruments available.
That s preatty much doable. I always
use individual eq on each and all instruments tracks in any project as well span form voxengo... |
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Adrenal Mode
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
308
Posted : Mar 26, 2007 20:55
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Quote:
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On 2007-03-26 00:56, Seppa wrote:
hello mate,
I'm not a develloper but I thought many time that i would love to have a spectrum analyser being able to color the different instrument within the spectrum so i could see them. it would have to be a 3d spectrum. I have no idea if thats possible or if thats easy to do... but it seems to me thats a good idea.
does your idea have anything in comon with mine?
I wish you good luck !
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usaly those kind of analyzer tools are stendalong progrems that conect to your external mixer with your multichannel sound card of cours, then you just route color for every input from the sofware, its abit hard to do internaly (as vst), but i know Alex from Voxengo done somthing similar with the routing options in his OvertoneGEQ, so the plug should be, analyzer plugin with 24 internal routing channels .
i think such an analyzer will be MEGA Sealer, but
i love to say: "to make money you need money" and alot more to know. (the market, the ppl in the market, where are you in the market..ect..)
btw Seppa, 3d spectrum = waterfall spectrum
good luck!
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slyman604
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
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263
Posted : Mar 26, 2007 21:28
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i think its a great idea but are you a programmer?
i think one huge potential problem is that DAW software probly sums the audio before VST can access individual channels on the master bus.
this might not be possible. |
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : Mar 26, 2007 22:20
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I m not a programmer, I m just a kind of guy that thinks that most of daw (not to say all) will certainly be easier concrning mix tasks. So why not to helpplugins or daw programer to think alitlle forward. If we close this topic with a nice idea maybe someone can listen to us, and try something. All I can say is:
don t you agree that some tools I mentioned would be great?
If you think so, next question would be: is it technically possible?
I believe it is, and if it s not soon it will be. Space boy already does something similar.
Did anyone here ever preview quad core when first saw a computer for the first time? Did anyone ever thought about playstation when first saw Atari (btw I prefer Atari).
I m not saying I m visionary or something even close to that. I just want to think with you guys what kind of tool is missing and would help us a lot in mixing process. I m sure something next to what I said would.....
I m looking for a developer when this thread ends... |
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psyaudionamics
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
546
Posted : Mar 27, 2007 02:20
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i would like everything in one simple plugin... like a plugin that would route everything even external gear like my liquid mix,etc all in one frame... i agree it would make mixing alot easier especially when ur mix has lots of tracks... maybe u can even assign names to each slot.
even better you be able to create ur own templates...
hehe.
not sure bout havin compressors and reverbs built in i got my faves already but yeh one plugin acting kinda of a mixer with analyzers and the works be cool... |
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : Mar 27, 2007 05:27
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I m not sure if all effects should be included...but at least eq and spectrum analysis working together, would heelp a lot...I wish I could see any individual channel freqs I wanted and then see them all mixed in a global analyzer... |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Mar 27, 2007 10:08
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it s a good idea and can help people but it s not for me,i have mixed for too long with my eyes and for me it was a waste of time ,just close them and you ll see your mix ll be better,eyes are there only to fool you with music production. |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
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2219
Posted : Mar 27, 2007 11:44
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I have to agree with PoM on the last point. I usually do some basic mixing while I make each sound and get things to a comfortable balance between the sounds, then as each time I listen to the track as it's in production, I double check that there aren't two similar sounds drowning it out... It shouldn't matter how long it takes to eq and level adjust the individual tracks. I really don't see how different this thing would be to putting a frequency analyzer on the master and checking each sound as you make it....
  An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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Adrenal Mode
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
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308
Posted : Mar 27, 2007 15:56
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ess765
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
169
Posted : Mar 27, 2007 18:14
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Pom, I understand your point and I expected this kind of opinion.
My point isn t replacing ears by eyes. My point is just to have an extra tool, cause some freqs sometimes are so discrete in the mix, and when you eliminate them, things get really more clear.....
I ve found some low freqs at leads which I barelly couldn t listen to it...
But when you have a general view on each instrument freqs spectrum, you can organize yor self where to put each instrument in the mix space in a more accurate way. If you already have accurate ears, this plugin would a bring a 5 to 10% chance of error to near 0%, maybe.
I think both ears and eyes can work together...
But anyway, I m preatty sure people can live without spectrum analysis....that s a matter ot taste regarding method...
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Mar 27, 2007 18:24
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I can do the superimposed spectrum analysis in Sonar 6.2.1 kind of ... I can open a Voxengo SPAN on several tracks, X-Ray them (make them transparant) and put them one on top of each other. You can see the different frequency plots one above each other.
Unfortunately my lowly video card isn't too happy with these superimposed transparant windows and things start slowing down if I have more than 4 or 5 of them superimposed at the same time. It must be because of the alpha blending as things are fine otherwise.
Of course that doesn't do any EQ for you or anything but like PoM I tend to listen rather than look when I mix so I don't think I would use such a tool too much anyway.
But anyway, thats just how I work. Good luck with your project!
UnderTow |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Mar 27, 2007 19:53
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A vst I would like to have is a midi triggered envelope filter which tracks the note of the midi and applys a tracked frequency filter effect on an audio channel. You would probably have to do this as two separate units. but its probably easier than ur proposing. |
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