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Headroom ......... ??
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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5380
Posted : Jun 20, 2007 22:13
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RenderingRebel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
293
Posted : Jun 20, 2007 23:39
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Btw, be really carefull with this theory
I made some masters for myself and wanted to get them on -10 rms to fit the masters silicon sound did for us
I pushed a bit too hard, i only found out later when listening really carefully
You can hear slight digital distortion, a noisy like sound
So always listen REALLY carefull when doing this
  SQL: http://www.myspace.com/sqlmusic
Coming up: Releases
Planned: make tracks |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 02:43
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On 2007-06-20 17:13, chris organic wrote:
Ultimately as Ido said, it really depends on the style of music... those pro guys are working on totally different style of music, totally "un-punchy" as Ido would say.
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You have to be carefull here because making everything loud isn't actually making it punchy. On the contrary, it is removing the punch and making it flat and tiring to listen to for longer periods of time reguardless of musical style.
Punch is actually achieved by keeping the micro dynamics between the loud bits (lets say the beats) and the soft bits (between the beats).
If you take alot of the psytrance released these days, it might sound loud but it certainly doesn't sound punchy. It sounds flat and often lacks low-end.
The latest Nano records compilation (Origin Stage 3) wasn't crushed to oblivion and the well produced tracks on this comp sound nicer and punchier than alot of other stuff once you adjust for level!
What I mean by that is that if you take for instance "Hydrophonic - Heckyl And Jive" or "Headroom - Artelligent" from that album and lets say "Domestic - Big Time" (sorry Ido), load them into your sequencer on two different tracks and then lower the volume of "Big Time" so that it sounds more or less as loud as "Heckyl and Jive" (about -2.5dB by my reckoning). Now turn up the level of your monitoring so that it sounds nice and loud (but not too loud) and switch between the tracks.
To me "Heckyl and Jive" or "Artelligent" have more punch. They also has more low end. They also sounds cleaner and more engaging sonicly to my ears.
So yes, you can get very loud mixes by clipping but you get punchier and better sounding mixes by keeping the loudness down to slightly more reasonable levels.
The next thing to realise is that when you use clipping with no oversampled limiter after it in the signal chain, the actual levels coming out of your DA converters after reconstruction might be above 0db FS. These are called inter sample peaks.
Here is a section of "Big Time":
http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/Sampling/Big_Time.jpg
It looks fine like this and seems to be nicely limited to levels arround 0 dB FS.
This is a zoomed in view of the left channel at one of the peaks:
http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/Sampling/Big_Time-zoom.jpg
You can see that the sample values are below 0 dB FS but the actual reconstructed signal that will come out of your converter will go beyond 0 dB FS! This is what is called an illegal signal as it has passed 0 dB FS.
With quality converters that have alot of headroom in the analogue stages, like Ido's Lavry's, this is usually not a problem but there is no way to guess how cheap consumer converters will react to these illegal signals. What might sound great in the studio might sound distorted on a consumer player.
With the occasional peak, this isn't usually an issue but whith psytrance that is hitting those peaks nearly throughout the whole song each time the kick and snare hit together (for instance), it could get very messy.
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Does anyone have an opinion on Bob Katz & Paul Frindles' discussion in the thread above about keeping the levels LOWER to clean things up....?
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You can be pretty sure that Paul is right about anything to do with digital audio. And yes he is right about keeping lower levels. It will give you cleaner results.
If you need to get those extremely loud levels then clipping can be a good technique as it can often sound cleaner than limiting but if you can avoid it (and unless you are doing things professionaly for clients I would say you can), keep things a little lower. Ultimately, it will sound better.
Making everything so loud is pretty much ruining the music IMO.
UnderTow |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 13:35
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On 2007-06-20 17:13, chris organic wrote:
Does anyone have an opinion on Bob Katz & Paul Frindles' discussion in the thread above about keeping the levels LOWER to clean things up....?
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yes try it  my tracks peak usually around -6 /-7db on the master and since i use low levels i think my mix improved a lot ,then i find this topic with lot of intresting read with some engineers confirming it should be only better,i m sure it s a reason that helped me to improve my sound. |
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vitusya
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
15
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 14:17
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To UnderTow...
I think its vary incorrect to compare different artists with punch, its vary vary meter of test, for me some of old X-Dream is much punchy, but its also is totaly different music.
For me tracks of Ido like some standard, i learn alot from it just listening its something like 1000times... and when i compare my work whith Ido i always convince that i need learn more and more. You can talk and talk, but I trust only to my ears... and they say that domestic sound Excellently, and i thing the point is noy only in mustering, the point is in all combination of kicks bass percusion leads, you may dont like those style of music, but it sound so f..ing organic. And when I read what Ido posts it comes to me as golden info... Whith all his tips I discover alot of new. Big Thks Ido.
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 14:18
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 14:24
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vitusya i think UnderTow ( and maybe you too if i don t undersant you ,in this case forget what i m saying) is not talking about the punch of the tracks in a musical way but more about the dymanics lost with limting /compression |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 15:35
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I absolutely agree with Undertow in terms of "less loud" music can be more punchy and nice than fully limited stuff.
Especially on well speakers. Just turn it up a little louder, and wow!
But Ido's stuff sounds very well to me even on the shitiest kitchenradio I can find. so that "illegal signal" somehow doesn't apply here.
When it comes to sounding loud, compress and limit to the max it really depends on what you want to do...
Psytrance has become very narrow minded in that area. (actually not the folks but the DJs and Acts, since the folks usually do perceive it much simpler anyway)
For instance my music. I simply can't make it extremely loud because I'm a guy who loves to layer tons of sounds and melodies, filling up the whole spectrum with millions of details.. if I start limiting to much this details all go down the toilet.
But if you do music with elements like kick n bass, drums, Efx, one or two leads (as many actual psytrance) it is relatively easy to make it very loud (if you want you can even limit the elements f.i. leads already to the max). there is not much detail or dynamic to loose anyway.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 15:51
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On 2007-06-21 14:17, vitusya wrote:
To UnderTow...
I think its vary incorrect to compare different artists with punch, its vary vary meter of test, for me some of old X-Dream is much punchy, but its also is totaly different music.
For me tracks of Ido like some standard, i learn alot from it just listening its something like 1000times... and when i compare my work whith Ido i always convince that i need learn more and more. You can talk and talk, but I trust only to my ears... and they say that domestic sound Excellently, and i thing the point is noy only in mustering, the point is in all combination of kicks bass percusion leads, you may dont like those style of music, but it sound so f..ing organic. And when I read what Ido posts it comes to me as golden info... Whith all his tips I discover alot of new. Big Thks Ido.
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I'm not criticising Ido's music or production. But I'm quite sure it would sound even better and punchier if it was a couple of dBs less loud.
I just took one of his tracks as an example as I had allready loaded it to compare to less loud tracks.
Also the "illegal signal" comment is valid for nearly everything released these days even the less loud tracks as nearly everything has brickwall limiters and/or clipping applied.
I'm just pointing out something that went wrong early on in the history of digital audio. Basicly, the way nearly everyone uses digital audio is slightly wrong because nearly every digital meter looks at sample values rather than actual signal level.
UnderTow |
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
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485
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 16:29
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I agree 100% with undertow ! to handle the dynamics in a tracks , its an art. I find its somehow easier for me to handle it while mixing a rock track for example than a psytrance track. I guess its because rough mixing at the recording stage helps me get the right feel.
its true that a lot of psytrance lacks low end too. Its sounds like plastic and often gives me headache if I listen too long. I was impressed by some of undertow's(loki) tracks because of the mixing. it did sound right and pleasant sound wise . creativily wise its not my type but still ........
And I do agree with the nano rec comp but its not always been like that..... even if I really loved their first compilation.
For example clarity proper had good tracks on it but I don't think it did sound great overall.
SEppppppppaaaaaaaaaaaa! |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
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8087
Posted : Jun 21, 2007 17:30
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i agree ido 's stuff sound very well ,not harsh and don t give me headache .the link i posted about keeping the level low was more into the mixing stage, after the mastering engineer do it how he like and how it s sound good to him. |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
42
Posted : Jul 11, 2007 12:18
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Well i have to second almost everything Undertow said..
in general its better to keep levels lower but i think that its true if u dont really know what u are doing
if u know what u are doing and have good ears to tell u when its too much and when it starts to ruin dynamics and to distort and if u know and have the right hardware or software to use then it is possible to get to this levels...
u can see that so many killer sounding albums like Gwen stephane (this is maybe the loudest album ever) or rihanna or groove armada and so many more have very loud level but still super clean and amazingly dynamic , and these albums are much louder than any psytrance album and of course sound million times better
so it actually depends on many things , on your mix , on your hardware , on your ears and your skill..
but still if u are not 100% sure what u are doing u better lower the levels
most of the limiters will kill your punch and take out some lowend especially if u go very loud like undertow said
it is very common that ppl often feel like when putting a limiter or clipping the sound gets better just because its louder , the truth is that is not , it is actullay worst.
the wholle idea with limiting is to raise the level WITHOUT affecting to the sound so that it will just give u a high leveled track , but the thing is all limiters affect the sound in a way so what u are getting actually is a louder sound but not better.
ppl sometimes dont realize that they think a track sound much better just becuase its 1 db up , they will then start to say the bass is better the highs are better but the only thing that is different is that it is one db up..
so its actually just an illusion and the only reason for that Gain wars is that noone wants to sound lower than others but not nessecerly cuz its better
it is very easy to believe that higher levels are better when actually the opposite is right.
but still if u wanna do that it is possible but u need very good ears and knowledge (and alot of cash in yr bank to get the best hardware hehe) , till then work in a more reasonable levels.
btw the bigtime track was mastered with adlimiter from logic so i dont c how it could go more than 0db and also comparing full on with progressive is also a bit suspicious dont u think undertow?.
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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Alias
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
32
Posts :
984
Posted : Jul 11, 2007 21:23
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jul 11, 2007 22:51
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On 2007-07-11 12:18, Ido (Domestic) wrote:
btw the bigtime track was mastered with adlimiter from logic so i dont c how it could go more than 0db and also comparing full on with progressive is also a bit suspicious dont u think undertow?.
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I don't know wether adlimiter does anything to avoid inter-sample peaks. I don't think so. Note that I am talking about the signal after reconstruction. Not the actual sample values.
As for comparing the tracks, I would say that comparing any tracks of any genres this way is rather arbitrary. You really need to compare the same source material with different types of processing to be able to make any real judgement about it.
It was just a less than scientific comparison.
UnderTow |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Jul 12, 2007 03:24
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On 2007-06-20 17:13, chris organic wrote:
Does anyone have an opinion on Bob Katz & Paul Frindles' discussion in the thread above about keeping the levels LOWER to clean things up....?
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AFAIK that only applies if you are working with a fixed point system, for example Pro Tools, or when recording analogue sources if you need to drive your preamps too hard to get a signal in to the converter close to 0 dBFS.
In a floating point system like most DAW's and when recording digital sources it will not be an issue.
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