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Headroom ......... ??
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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5380
Posted : Mar 16, 2007 18:45
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ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
104
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1047
Posted : Mar 16, 2007 18:49
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Just my input here...
I never liked to try many different "home master", so I can easily compare my tracks. So I´m used to put only a L2 to play my music.
I made some fast tests here using Cubase´s clip. And for my ears, I prefered this method.
Sounds like L2 really eats some punchy, but also some highs... I always thought L2 pushed too much the highs, but now I think it maybe makes it too thin... With Cubase´s clip, the high sounds much more consistency, solid, imho.... as for the low.
But something I realise using the clip method, is that the RMS meter is very "up down" here, while with L2 the level is more stable... Althought I think I can raise more the clipping, than L2, without those annoying compression effects(specially after a break, with a big hit).
Now maybe a dumb question:
Does anyone tried this method for single channels? I mean, if it´s good to raise and limit the track, it can be good to make the same for leads/vocals/etc...
  LOADING... |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
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42
Posted : Mar 16, 2007 19:38
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which limiter u use colin?
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
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5380
Posted : Mar 16, 2007 20:17
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I've been using Waves L3... I like it for the 'Priority' control which means you can eliminate "those annoying compression effects (specially after a break, with a big hit)" (cheers SMS for the description  ). Whap the low-band priority up to 12 and the bass instantly becomes much more stable. I try not to use more than 2dB of limiting though as more than that starts to sound a bit grainy; I prefer to try and get an even level using compression and EQ before it even gets to the limiter.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
101
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3239
Posted : Mar 17, 2007 15:35
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@SMS
For single channel you will have to bounce the 'eaten' signal wave. Making it inside the mixer won't change much since it's all 32bit float processing.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
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Posted : Mar 19, 2007 20:42
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these are some of Chris athens (guy who masters coldplay, neptunes, britney and many more) sayings.
thought it would be interesting to read , i really like his atitude with sound .
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I don't drive the A/D particularly hard. I don't really look at it while I'm working but I'm pretty sure it's clipping a little most of the time. I make up the rest of the gain in the computer. Seems like a combination of the analog and digital works best on most stuff. I have to say however, I don't have any rules, just tendencies. Mostly I'm responding to what's on "tape".
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Sometimes I use the L2 plug-in. I never use more than a db or two of limiting with that thing. Everytime I use more it sounds like crap.
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My records probably have overlevels all over them. To be honest I don't give a shit if the red light flashes. I just care what it sounds like. I don't think the plants care at all anymore [they used to raise hell].
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u can read the whole thread here :
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=62358&page=2&highlight=ted+jensen
his nick name is Masterer
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Mar 19, 2007 21:11
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I also use clipping all the time. But unlike Ido, I will usualy put a limiter behind it to get a couple of dB extra after the clipping. Also, I will use Voxengo Elephant to do the clipping. I set it to 4X oversampling mode so that part of the distortion gets filtered out after downsampling.
Mastering engineers have been clipping their chains for quite a while. Nothing unusual there. But as Ido said, you need a good mix to start with or it won't sound good. Basicly you want the clipping to just catch transients and never clip on sounds with longer sustains as that becomes audible.
Oh yeah and no Waves limiters. They suck.
UnderTow |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 19, 2007 21:45
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that thread at gearslutz is really cool,
Hey Ido, having chris athens hanging around there talking about mastering is like having you hanging around here talking about basslines n'stuff.
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge!
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Meta
Meta/Boomslang
Started Topics :
24
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1045
Posted : Mar 20, 2007 02:41
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On 2007-03-19 21:11, UnderTow wrote:
I also use clipping all the time. But unlike Ido, I will usualy put a limiter behind it to get a couple of dB extra after the clipping. Also, I will use Voxengo Elephant to do the clipping. I set it to 4X oversampling mode so that part of the distortion gets filtered out after downsampling.
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Do you mean you bounce with clips, then bounce THAT file with the Elephant put on top? I thought the point of a limiter was to prevent clipping so I'm not sure what you mean by "using the Elephant to clip".
Also, what difference does activating 4x instead of Auto make? The manual led me to believe using the Auto mode turns on 4x when bouncing but leaves it off when you are just playing and dithering isn't happening, perhaps I misunderstood that part.
http://soundcloud.com/aeon604
http://www.metaekstasis.com/
http://the1134.com/ |
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S7a5
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
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62
Posted : Mar 20, 2007 04:09
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Very very impressive Ido and I have noticed many times that I dont hear any artifacts or clicks when it goes over 0db on the master buss, but I never realized it was fine.
Correct me if I'm wrong Ido, but after reading all your posts I understood the following:
1 - When properly mixing a track it's ok (even preferable) if there are some peaks go over the master channel by 1 or 2 db as long as other channels are not over 0db.
2 - It's fine to send the mix to mastering engineers even if it clips
3 - The mastering engineer (like you) will then open the track in his sequencer, put some compressor on master buss and raise the master vol. fader all the way to the top (+6db). If the track will produce some audible clicks, he'll gently re-adjust the levels.
4 - Finally, he'll bounce the track, open it again in a sequencer and insert dithering plugin on post-fader insert of master buss and as the last step he'll insert some sort of limiter like L-2 with 0.1 outceilling to make sure decks and cd players will play it and there are no annoying red lights on the master channel.
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
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1448
Posted : Mar 20, 2007 16:22
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On 2007-03-20 02:41, Meta wrote:
Do you mean you bounce with clips, then bounce THAT file with the Elephant put on top? I thought the point of a limiter was to prevent clipping so I'm not sure what you mean by "using the Elephant to clip".
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Well I actually work with everything on the stereo bus while I am writing the project. Usually a hipass filter arround 18-30Hz (Depending on the bass+kick combo), a compressor catching 1-2 dB, a clipper (Voxengo) catching another 1-2dB and then a limiter (Voxengo)catching yet another 2-3 dB.
The Voxengo Elephant is a limiter but you can set it to clip mode. It is similar to clipping the DAW bus but you can turn on oversampling for a slightly less edgy sound.
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Also, what difference does activating 4x instead of Auto make? The manual led me to believe using the Auto mode turns on 4x when bouncing but leaves it off when you are just playing and dithering isn't happening, perhaps I misunderstood that part.
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You understood right. But I want to hear what I am doing so I tend to have the oversampling on while working.
Although Ido is right about clipping in general, if you send something to be mastered, I suggest you don't clip at all. The mastering engineer can always clip if he/she thinks that it is necessary.
UnderTow
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RenderingRebel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
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293
Posted : Mar 20, 2007 17:25
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My thoughts exactly!
Because its easyer to make something clip then to "un-clip" something:P
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
Started Topics :
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42
Posted : Mar 21, 2007 02:11
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On 2007-03-20 04:09, S7a5 wrote:
Very very impressive Ido and I have noticed many times that I dont hear any artifacts or clicks when it goes over 0db on the master buss, but I never realized it was fine.
Correct me if I'm wrong Ido, but after reading all your posts I understood the following:
1 - When properly mixing a track it's ok (even preferable) if there are some peaks go over the master channel by 1 or 2 db as long as other channels are not over 0db.
2 - It's fine to send the mix to mastering engineers even if it clips
3 - The mastering engineer (like you) will then open the track in his sequencer, put some compressor on master buss and raise the master vol. fader all the way to the top (+6db). If the track will produce some audible clicks, he'll gently re-adjust the levels.
4 - Finally, he'll bounce the track, open it again in a sequencer and insert dithering plugin on post-fader insert of master buss and as the last step he'll insert some sort of limiter like L-2 with 0.1 outceilling to make sure decks and cd players will play it and there are no annoying red lights on the master channel.
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quite correct just that:
1. i wouldnt clip the mix on purpose , but i think its ok if most of the mix is not clipped but sometimes u have just lil parts on the
track that clip like 1 or 1.5dbs , so i wouldnt be worried about that and i think its better they cut on the first export cuz than
they would not distort when mastering.
2.yup
3.it doesnt have to be +6dbs , it depends how much the engineer wants to raise , could be 2db , 6db or even 10db.
4.i usually put the dithering before exporting on the master channel , than put all trax in audio montage for pq's and then just adjust the level 0.1 down , i try to avoid using L2 cuz it just hurts the sound i think ,
anyway there is no need to use it for backing off 0.1 db cuz u can just use normal level to do that.
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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Y LIKE THIS
Started Topics :
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Posted : Mar 21, 2007 03:55
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oh.., there's nothing like a good clipping thread...
guys,, don't follow clipping as a basic rule to get loudness!
ido does that because he knows his monitoring envoierment to perfection,and has the golden ears and years of experience..
the evolution of rms levels that's going on in the last years drives the mastering eng' to go higher and higher,,
ido have producers/record labels that expecting from him to a certain loudness,,
u cant go there without clipping in some part of the process.
this thread title is "headroom" how ironic is that...
after killing it with limiters/clipping we go to play on a hyper distorted all red lights pioneer dj mixer ,and top it with some shitty compressor to protect the system...
don't get me wrong I'm also clipping the crap off my lvary blue's..but just cause i have to get the desired and relevant for today RMS levels,
clipping is translated to sound differently depends on the material,and quality of the sources/sounds,if your mix is balanced eq/dynamics-wise,you would probably have to limit less,or clip less to get what you want.
just to add some contrast here,,
imagine if there was a law that sets the limit for a cd rms level,,you could go wild with super punchy mixes with huge depth
and dynamics ,dvd style...,and the volume knob at the listener stereo/party P.A system would be at higher point,..how fun that would be???
but that's just a sweet fantasy,
red lights here i come...
ZE IM ZE BLI |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
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42
Posted : Mar 21, 2007 04:40
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youre as right as my right leg!
but hey...we're at the 'loudness wars age'
so i guess we'll just need to continue fighting peaks till some day we'll win..
i wish there was a -13db rms law , that would peak ha...
btw have u noticed any lowcut on yr lavry blue when a/d ?
really slight one but it drives me crazy .
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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I know Wavelab has it but I master in Sound Forge for the flexible plugin chainer. Besides, my normal limiter uses IDR so for this comparison I thought it would be better to use the same dither for the clipped master.