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Headroom ......... ??
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Mar 12, 2007 17:22
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RenderingRebel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
293
Posted : Mar 13, 2007 09:10
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I will keep it in mind for the next time  |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
42
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 11:47
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Sorry to blow the party off , but i would clip the hell out of Cubase's master fader - before AND in the Mastering process.
Cubase sx's Master is actually the best Limiter/Maximizer u can find , especially more than L2 . its even a bit better than the Timeworks mastering comprresor.
of course i wouldnt recomend to clip too much before master , but i would sure not be worried about +1 to +2db cliping , it would even make it better for mastering after , since the higher clips are already gone in the 1st bounce , which will make my compressor work more accurated on the peak levels after AND would make it much easier to push more at the final level cuz - again the higher peaks are gone and wouldnt 'sonicly' clip when pushed to master level.
Once mastering , i would reach +6db clipping in the sx's master easily , and of course it just sounds great if its proccesed right from before.
so again i wouldnt be worried about 0.1 or 0.5db cliping .
just to abandon theories for a sec and have a listen yourself 
 .ParadoX Rocks. |
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Meta
Meta/Boomslang
Started Topics :
24
Posts :
1045
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 12:19
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 Holy crap!
This was... the last thing I expected to read here.
It's true that I have never really noticed the SOUND of clipping when clipping on the SX mixer but... always assumed there would be some artifact that would show up later or something or mess with mastering somehow...
Is this the secret of the long-coveted Israeli Production SuperLoudness? 
http://soundcloud.com/aeon604
http://www.metaekstasis.com/
http://the1134.com/ |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
Started Topics :
0
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42
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 12:37
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could be , do u know how to keep a secret? once again , your ears are the judge .
I personnaly never trust thoeries although im quite fermilier with them , but i think 50% of the theories are just theories and the human ear cannot hear or tell the difference.
thats why i spend hours and days in the studio (like a real geek) just listening and trying things that theories do not allow and in the end - its sounds good and u could never tell that something's 'theoraticly' wrong cuz in the end your ear is the monitor if u know what i mean.
i could definitly say that the clipping in cubase is more transperent then my Lavry Blue convertors which i bought for 2500$ or my UAD Pricision Limiter which i bought for 200$.
i wouldnt say all the above refer to any kind of music , cuz i have less experience with other kinds of music than with electronic 4on4 kinda music which usually for my opinion require punchy kind of sound that most of the limiters just kills - especially L2.
in other kinds of music this kinda punch is not allways required and sometimes it sounds even better when your limiter alter the sound and make it softer.
but i personnaly allways looking for a limiter which is 100% transperent and doesnt change the sound and doesnt kill the punch which in that case , cubase sx's master would be my chioce. .ParadoX Rocks. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 13:06
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Ido what do you think about "cliping" all the chanels from the start so you don t need limiter/maximizer at the end?it s sound better or not like this? or maybe it s the same with cliping the master fader? |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
Started Topics :
0
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42
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 13:09
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i wouldnt do that tho im quite sure u couldnt tell the difference but i would try not to clip individual channels also cuz of dynamic range matters , and leave the clipping stage to the mastering.
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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Raoul V
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
583
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 13:12
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Wow.. learn something new everyday!!  Thanks ido, thats a great tip.... i've always suffered from my mixes sounding a bit soft, as compared to other un mastered mixes, i've had pro's tell me its nothing to worry abt, as long as the mix is good thats all that should matter, but when i want to play my tracks at a party 'home mastered' i ALWAYS have to pump the gain up...
i always tried to ensure that no clips occur at any stage, be it instruments, master fader, or whatever.. as a result i have to pull the mix volume down to get rid of those one off spikes that rarely occur, but still do at peak elements... im guessing thats whats making my mixes soft, if its ok to clip upto 2db without compromisng anything, that will surely help raising the mix volume !! |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
42
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 13:22
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yes but still 1db clip wouldnt get u a master level , u will still need to push the dj mixer's fader more.
i would suggest to make 2 versions one low one for mastering that doesnt clip too much and another version for playing , but...
i think its better to export that low version mentioned and put the file in a new project and simply push the level of that specific channel to the level u want to reach.
of course if yr mix is a bit messy - too much bass or too much energy at some frequencies u could not push the level too much.
but that will give u a nice level for playing but still - to reach a proper master level the track has to be processed right , means -compressed right and eq'd right , than u can push the sx's master fader and reach master level without problems.
but when doing clipping like that u need to really be extra carfull and listen if there are clips(sonicly heard distortions) and if yes u need to make it lower
about the soft mix - lowering the master fader or the channels doesnt make yr mixes soft - it just makes it Lower
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
875
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 13:49
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Is there any difference between moving the master level up to a certain point and normalizing to peak? |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
Started Topics :
0
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42
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 13:55
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i think normalizing changes the sound too much , i never normalize , especially not on a whole track , i just change levels.
also i always keep the Master fader at 0 db
the clipping i do is after exporting the track and put it in a new project , by pushing the specific channel's level which the file is on and remaining the master fader at 0db
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
485
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 15:05
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hehe!!
thanks for that ido, i've never been to happy about limiting cause of transparency, and i have to say I'm really curious to to see what this master fader does cause it never came to my mind to actually push the guy.
I think i'm gonna run a series of test to actually compare this fader with the elephant (which does a descent job)to see what where we stand here
Quote:
| i think normalizing changes the sound too much , i never normalize , especially not on a whole track , i just change levels. |
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yep, stay all away from the normalize function |
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RenderingRebel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
293
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 18:58
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Wow really interesting stuff here....
But i really cant help not to beleive this..
The master fader doesnt show clips for nothing right?
And all the mastering engineers that i spoke to said to export at about -2 to give them enough space for mastering compressors
Or are you just saying this for unmastered tracks to play in your set? |
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Ido (Domestic)
Domestic
Started Topics :
0
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42
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 20:56
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no , as i said i think its even better when yr mix clipping at least like 1db cuz it makes it more stable and even easier to compress after at the mastering stage , and easier to maximize as well .
what im saying is i wouldnt be worried about master clipping in cubase cuz i know and i use cubase's master to master and maximize trax , and i go up to +6db easy without sonicly heard clips , so 1 or 2 db is not a problem to clip for sure.
about leaving space for master engineers -
as one of them my opinion is that as long u dont kill the dynamic range too much , means - 1db clip is almost nothing inside the dnamic range - u can send the trax like that for master , it doesnt really matter what level , the master engineer can always tweak the level of the track that go inside his gear for his required input level.
u can listen to the Master example i posted in this thread before , this master is made with cubase clipping at like 6dbs
.ParadoX Rocks. |
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pilgrim
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
19
Posts :
218
Posted : Mar 14, 2007 21:41
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thx for the info ido!
what about other daw's clipping-wise..? anyone knows about clipping-behaviour of logic and ableton?
as i dont have cubase i'm quite curious about that now.. |
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