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hardware?
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psypox
Psypox / Bufo
Started Topics :
53
Posts :
768
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 12:54
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how many of you artists uses hardware?
i have a big setup of synths and shit, but now these days i hardly use my hardware.the only things i use is my virus and vst's.
sometimes i use my jupiter 6 because of it's GREAT analog killer sound, that no vst can sound like..
and another question, what vst's do you use to make some psyckedelic leads and shit?
peace!
  www.myspace.com/psypox |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 13:03
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I don't use any hardware synth or effect.
My Studio:
pc -AMD 2800 / 1gb ram / 210gb hard disc
Samson resolv63A monitors
evolution MK249C keyboard
+software
FL Studio 4.52
Cubase SX 2
Wavelab 5
Lot of softsynth and effects and samples
Mainly using:
+z3ta, NI stuff, v-station and albino
peace
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
Posts :
988
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 14:13
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I don't use hardware either, but i do use the Virus for Powercore, which should be equivalent to the hardware Virus. I also use dsp plugins that should be equivalent to hardware units.
My setup:
PC AMD 2400 / 1gb ram/ 160gig hardisk
Cubase SX 2
Reaktor 4
Powercore dsp card + Plugins
Virus for Powercore
UAD-1 dsp card + Plugins
Evolution Midi-controller
Tannoy Reveal & Behringer Truth monitors
AKG K240df Headphones
I used to be a firm believer in normal softsynths & fx, but since i use the Virus my music sounds way better. I guess that real analog gear wil give you even better basses and leads then softsynths, at least at the moment.
Same goes for EQs Reverbs and Compression. With the FX that come with the Powercore and UAD-1 dsp cards you can create a much better sound than with normal plugins. If you use professional outboard gear may probably get even better results.
Native software has come a long way, but it will take a while before it can replace high-end hardware.
I do use Reaktor a lot though: it has possibilities that are unimaginable in hardware at the moment (although a Nord Modular could do some stuff better). |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 14:19
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Most of my favourite synths is on the creamware scope platform. Just a bit more real and dense sounding than most VSTi's i find. Especially basses and kicks.
But some VSTi's can be great for certain sounds. +z3ta, pentagon and oddity is some favourites for cool leads.
I also have some harware standing around since the akward old day's, but can't be asked to use them anymore... |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 14:30
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Quote:
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I used to be a firm believer in normal softsynths & fx, but since i use the Virus my music sounds way better. I guess that real analog gear wil give you even better basses and leads then softsynths, at least at the moment.
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The Virus is not analog I belive.
What does matter is if you are using a regular processor or dedicated DSP chips. Thats why some hardware will use higher resolution when generating the sound than a native plug.
Not all hardware has good DSP chips though, for example the first Nord Lead's was using a 486 66mhz. Most plugins nowadays sound a lot better than those if you ask me.
So systems like powercore or pulsar will enable you to use higher resolution plugs than using AMD/Intel. And they have very efficient copy protection, so the developers can release thier higher quality algorithms wihout everyone having instant access to them.
Kinda annoys me now though, cause I need to reactivate my pulsar card, and I can't get a key, cause creamware have a problem on their webpage 
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 14:48
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"What does matter is if you are using a regular processor or dedicated DSP chips. Thats why some hardware will use higher resolution when generating the sound than a native plug."
this doesnt realy matter either.,
you can do 128-bits dsp calculations on a p4 .,,
what does matter thou is the quality (and speed) of the algorithms and (in case of outboard gear) the quality of the 'beef-up' stage and the quality of the convertors.,
yes, most outboard gear have a beef-up stage.,
sometimes it's digital, sometimes it's analogue but usually there is at least some eq thing going on.,
this is what gives outboard gear it's character.,
and that's why you dont get instant character from most vst's.,
greets.,
aka., |
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fuzzikitten
Annunaki
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
603
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 17:01
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Quote:
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On 2004-08-27 14:48, ZilDoggo wrote:
and that's why you dont get instant character from most vst's.,
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So how what all goes on in this 'beef up stage' - is it beyond our control to intelligently do something similar with our VSTis? I guess I'm asking if you can elaborate on this 'eq thing' to help me better understand what softsynths are missing.
I've snuck into the back room of my local music shop and played with a Virus for a few hours - it DEFINITELY sounds better than any softsynth I've ever touched.
But if I can understand what is missing... maybe there's a way to fake it.
All that matters is the eventual sound.  |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 17:17
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well, all kinds of enhancements can be put there.,
eq (slightly boosting low and high to give it a more polished sound)
compresion/waveshaping,
stereo imaging/enhancers,
harmonical enhancing/exiters.,
comb filtering
etc.,
etc.,
anything that will polish up the sound or introduce more identity to the sound..,
so it's basically a little like mastering.,
so you end up with a sound that already sounds a little mastered.,
anyway.,
getting off topic.,
greets.,
aka,. |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 17:38
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ZillDoggo,
It's true what you say, but not many native plugins work in 128bit resolution, because it would hog up the machine too much. Not even 64 bit is that common on native plugs. A dedicated DSP chip can do it with more ease than a regular CPU anyway.
And yes, they can beef up's in the hardware, and different converters have thier own sound.
Don't think there is normally very special or secret techniques that can't be done with native FX.
You will find that on most hardware synths they are quite cheap ones. Not saying that they sound bad because of that, they would rather contribute to the lo-fi beefyness of the sound sometimes.
If you have a high quality converter, it would actually sound more similar to a direct digital transfer.
And we seem to agree that the quality of the algorithms is important, and I think I tried to explain why. Less copy protection issues and different chips basically.
How do you think it was possible to make quality reverbs years ago if you look at the average chip in a PC then. DSP chips do DSP calculations more efficient and at a much lower cost.
That's why i think systems like pulsar or for example powercore is definatly the way to go. Much more flexible than the hardware, takes no space and is cheaper. And you don't have to stretch over in the studio and reach for som knob or tiny fiddly lcd-screen 
And if you look how proffesional studios is working nowadays, you have pro-tools, which is basically the same kind of system.
So yes hardware beats native in many way's.
I just don't think it need's to be in a box and have converters on it, so you need another box with more converters again. Just stick a chunk of DSP chips in a PCI slot, and it's all there.
Ok...anyway we all seem to basically agree
VSTi's lack something that much hardware have... some people wan't knobs and a box for theirs, I like to stick it in to my PC, and only see the front end on my screen with every thing else. |
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AvS
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
464
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 18:09
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ZilDoggo>>How do you know that some hardware has a "beef up" stage? |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Aug 27, 2004 20:15
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spindrift,
"It's true what you say, but not many native plugins work in 128bit resolution, because it would hog up the machine too much. Not even 64 bit is that common on native plugs. A dedicated DSP chip can do it with more ease than a regular CPU anyway. "
agreed that it's not a very good idea to use 128 bits numbers
it was just to show that modern cpu's can handle high precision calculations.
but i think i understand what you're saying.,
people expect to run multiple softsynths on a computer cpu.,
so the plugins will have a cut-down design to make them as efficient as possible.,
with dedicated hardware you can use the entire system (cpu, memory, etc) for just one program.,
and you can select the best hardware for the job.,
so you end up with a better balance of compromises.,
but i still feel that, in essence, the algorithm design is cpu independant.,
a chip doesnt 'sound' different from another.,
but often an algorithm is optimized for a certain cpu.,
this can include some cpu specific things.,
and this can change the end result.,
(like the handling of floating/fixed points, etc,.)
but this is pure economics speaking, an optimized design means you can use a cheaper cpu
so in the end, with digital systems, it's mostly the algorithms themselfs that make up the sound.,
properly designed algorithms (with things like antialiassing etc) make a big difference., but these require much more processing time.,
that's why companies like creamware and digidesign (and the third-party protools plugins) are more expensive than other companies., .,
you pay for the algorithm design and the hardware to run it on.,
but they DO give you a better quality.,
AvS,
i just listen to them
realy, if you put 10 hardware synths next to each other (ok, NOT 10 rolands  ) you will hear that every one has it's own character.,
not just the d-a convertors (but they can play a big role) but there is something of a finish to the sound.,
now try to load up 10 vst's and notice that they all somehow sound 'in the same space'.,
also, this beefing up is not only done in hardware.,
it's usually experienced synth/plugin makers who know how to do it right and know what people (musicians/producers) expect from a product.,
for instance, the quality of pro-tools plugins has been far far higher than most vst plugins because they make them for a demanding pro market.,
the quality of plkugins like albino has been there for years, it's just that most people could not afford it.,
new (vst) plugin designers usually dont know what people REALY want (which is uncompromised quality),
they have new and sometimes unpolished algorithms and havent got the experience to polish their sound to make it more authentic.,
i've seen many cool vst's that introduce cool new ideas but when you listen to them you realy start thinking if they ever met a real musician at all
greets.,
aka., |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Aug 28, 2004 02:12
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ZillDoggo,
Ok, we are basically saying the same thing in different way's.
But to be really technically correct, as I understand it a pure DSP chip like in pro-tool or pulsar don't actually have any special instruction sets. They are just designed to manage a lot of floating point calculations.
The CPU's on the other hand can have the instruction sets to try to improve their floating point performance. It's all part of compromises you have to make to make to make a processor that handles any type of calculation.
But yes theoretically the algorithm is not sounding like it does because of the chip. But practically a DSP chip can be easier to code a good algorithm on and it will give you more power to work with.
.....and it's turing in to a extremly technical discussion...and it's not really relevan't knowledge for most. Except for geeks like ZillDoggo and me who could go on and on I guess
Sorry everyone...back to topic |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Aug 28, 2004 15:42
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"Ok, we are basically saying the same thing in different way's. "
, yeah, i figured that
greets.,
aka., |
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Psycho Mushroom Lolipop
Inactive User
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
71
Posted : Sep 15, 2004 19:13
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hey psypox...
When are you going to sell those synths to me? you're not using them man
make a good price... (hey... give some away too Opti would die for one)
you're trully
PML |
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