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Grandfather of all Frequency Tunings
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
80
Posts :
3207
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 01:47
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yep.Transpose each step is 100 cents and finetuning should be regular cents.
Well you can create sounds from waves from scratch in synthesis of soundforge or wavelab and set there all you want ,but if you want to correct a pitch than transpose and finetuning is at least a way to do so.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think without transpose but only with finetuning it can be quite interesting.
I agree a hard modification like of 2 octaves (24 steps of transpose) sound different as if you would set the right note in your piano roll of synths for instance,it works often quite interesting though.
And I think to finetune a file with a few cents maybe this should be a nice feature to do with finetuning in cubase.
For instance after bouncing my kicks section I analyse and see I have a note +8 cents,so next I gonna set at kicks in Finetuning -8..I think this is corrected then.
I'd be glad to hear some other methods.
  https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 03:24
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On 2010-02-14 17:32, SCircuit wrote:
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you didn't understand my question. i was meaninng to ask with which tool you tune things? sampler? or some plugin?
i don't think the drummer know or care about the tune of his drums. i don't think that the note of the snare have to fit to the key of the bassline. and i'm not even sure if the note of the kick have to fit to the bassline even tough i tune them to fit together. i might be wrong though. i need to check it more.
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Learning how to tune your instrument is one of the first things you should learn how to do when picking it up. I've played the guitar, drums, bass, and violin for just over 22 years, and have been involved in numerous metal studio projects, and I can tell you from experience, that if the drummer doesn't care about how his drums are tuned, and acclimatized to the studio temperature and humidity before you hit the record button, your going to be wasting a lot of time and money and end up with an awful sound.
When I said earlier to tune your kick to the bass, it doesn't have to be the same "note", but if your writing a song in the root of A Mixolydian (blues) scale, you have the notes A B C# D E F# G A. so your kick can be tuned to A (55 Hz) your bass can be on the root note of A (110 or 220 Hz) or you can change it to B (123.5 Hz) or whatever "feel" you want to give the song. It doesn't have to be on an A, it was a generalized example.
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va synth are tuned as long as you don t detune them, i was wonwering what do you tune for psy?
or you use real instruments/analog synths in your music? or talking just about drums ? |
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
655
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 11:59
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[/quote]
although i said i don't think there is need to tune everything. i would like to know please if you tune everything to your route note so how do you do it? what is the best way to tune things?
[/quote]
there is no need to do anything except using your ears and your brain.... at least it´s my own way to go for things, if you like or share the mind behind is up to you. no one can tell if it´s needed to tune this or that.
but to the question, i tune everything to the root note yes. doesnt have to be same note like already mentioned here. thing is i do all my sounds on my own, so that i know just everything about it and am able to keep the desired note even on hard modulated stuff. sure few here will again tell you this and that, makes no sense blah. to me it makes sense and to my ears even more. so i keep on that, everyone should go for his/her own way...
for things like percussion, which is the only stuff i do not on my own, i go for something i like, which is charming to my ears and which fits the place. sure i tune it, but i dont have a look with analizing tools or stuff. just tune and process until i like...
to the tuning itself, .... there is no tool, plugin, software whatever.... and im afraid of the drummer sentence. sure he/she cares about the tuning, there are famous drummers out there, just famous for their ears and own way for tuning their drums. at the end imo is all about tuning in classical music stuff.
no tools, no plugins for that. just bit knowledge and few good sites 
cheers
FUCK GENRES, LOVE MUSIC!!!!
http://soundcloud.com/mandarimedia
http://banyan-records.com |
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Kryten
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
333
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 12:20
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First of all: Great thread, I guess this will solve a lot of my problems with sounds just not fitting into the track.
Second: The video posted on the first page.
I was able to hear the bass sound he mentioned in both parts (before and after).
But I dont hear any noticeable difference after he applied the EQ at 120Hz.
Am I deaf, or could it be that my ears are just not trained enough? |
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SCircuit
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
66
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 16:28
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On 2010-02-15 03:24, PoM wrote:
va synth are tuned as long as you don t detune them, i was wonwering what do you tune for psy?
or you use real instruments/analog synths in your music? or talking just about drums ?
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Ok, it might not be called "tuning", it might be called "mathematically correcting" or even something else. For quick reference I'm just going to grab the notes in front of me for the track I'm working on now....
First I did a little math...
The track is programmed in 146 bpm, so first I'm going to divide by 2 and get these figures.....
146
73
36.5
18.25
9.12
4.56
2.28
1.14
.57
.28
.14
.07
.03
.01
Next my track is written in F Mixolydian (Blues scale),
F
G
A
A#/Bb
C
D
D#/Eb
F
so using this chart....
http://www.olscratchrecordings.com/note_to_frequency_conversion.htm
I get these figures (only doing one scale for example, but figure it out all the way up).
F - 43.65 Hz
G - 49.00 Hz
A - 55.00 Hz
A#/Bb - 58.27 Hz
C - 65.41 Hz
D - 73.42 Hz
D#/Eb - 77.78 Hz
F - 87.31 Hz
Etc.... all the up to get all the figures....
Next to those conversions, I use this calculator....
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-period.htm
.... and using the numbers from the first conversions, I get this.....
F - 43.65 Hz - 22.909 ms
G - 49.00 Hz - 20.408 ms
A - 55.00 Hz - 18.181 ms
A#/Bb - 58.27 Hz - 17.161 ms
C - 65.41 Hz - 15.288 ms
D - 73.42 Hz - 13.62 ms
D#/Eb - 77.78 Hz - 12.85 ms
F - 87.31 Hz - 11.453 ms
and continue on the rest of the way up.....
From here, I have all my figures and numbers right in front of me, and won't need to go back and just reference them.
Ok, from here, I load any instrument or effect, depending on what it was loaded and wether the knob you want to tweek is in Hertz, Milliseconds, is a "time based" or "Frequency based" (terminology citation needed)control, will depend on what number is inputted.
For example..
If a knob control is is in Hz, and the Instrument being used is for a bass sound. I might enter 87.31 Hz or 174.62 Hz. Of course playing around with the numbers is crucial and is trial and error, and using your ears to making it sound just right....
If the knob utilizes Milliseconds, and the instrument is playing a mid-range lead, I'll try the 2.86 ms or 5.72 ms and again, use my ears to time correct it....
If it's a delay / chorus / filter / reverb, or something of that nature, I use the very first set of figures and might enter .07, .14, and again use my ears to correct any deficiencies.
Using this method has eliminated hours and hours of sitting there tweaking knobs trying to get it just right... and is what is working for me since I can only write music in my headphones. (current living situation does not allow me to turn on my monitors very often....=(...
It saves a lot of random guessing, and of course in the end, you still need to use your ears...
BTW, if you want to listen to the track that these figures were programmed in, you can find it here.... (shameless plug)...
http://www.myspace.com/shortcircuitlivepa
Just remember that I was only able to mix in headphones, and am aware of the mid range issues going on, and it's also had more done to it as far as arrangement and mixdown... I've just been lazy and haven't rendered it and uploaded it. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Cheers and happy programming!!
http://soundcloud.com/short-circuit
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Short-Circuit/446249920482?ref=nf |
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dj chichke
Chichke
Started Topics :
83
Posts :
705
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 18:23
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On 2010-02-15 11:59, -=Mandari=- wrote:
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although i said i don't think there is need to tune everything. i would like to know please if you tune everything to your route note so how do you do it? what is the best way to tune things?
[/quote]
there is no need to do anything except using your ears and your brain.... at least it´s my own way to go for things, if you like or share the mind behind is up to you. no one can tell if it´s needed to tune this or that.
but to the question, i tune everything to the root note yes. doesnt have to be same note like already mentioned here. thing is i do all my sounds on my own, so that i know just everything about it and am able to keep the desired note even on hard modulated stuff. sure few here will again tell you this and that, makes no sense blah. to me it makes sense and to my ears even more. so i keep on that, everyone should go for his/her own way...
for things like percussion, which is the only stuff i do not on my own, i go for something i like, which is charming to my ears and which fits the place. sure i tune it, but i dont have a look with analizing tools or stuff. just tune and process until i like...
to the tuning itself, .... there is no tool, plugin, software whatever.... and im afraid of the drummer sentence. sure he/she cares about the tuning, there are famous drummers out there, just famous for their ears and own way for tuning their drums. at the end imo is all about tuning in classical music stuff.
no tools, no plugins for that. just bit knowledge and few good sites
cheers
[/quote]
i appreciate your long answer but you didn't realy answer me. i understand you use your ears to tune everything, but your ears can't control the signal at the compter. you have to use some tool do tune the audio files, so what is the tool? |
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dj chichke
Chichke
Started Topics :
83
Posts :
705
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 18:26
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[quote]
On 2010-02-15 16:28, SCircuit wrote:
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On 2010-02-15 03:24, PoM wrote:
.... and using the numbers from the first conversions, I get this.....
F - 43.65 Hz - 22.909 ms
G - 49.00 Hz - 20.408 ms
A - 55.00 Hz - 18.181 ms
A#/Bb - 58.27 Hz - 17.161 ms
C - 65.41 Hz - 15.288 ms
D - 73.42 Hz - 13.62 ms
D#/Eb - 77.78 Hz - 12.85 ms
F - 87.31 Hz - 11.453 ms
and continue on the rest of the way up.....
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i didn't understand what the length column means? i can play any note i want at any length that i want. so what does it means? |
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SCircuit
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
66
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 18:36
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i appreciate your long answer but you didn't realy answer me. i understand you use your ears to tune everything, but your ears can't control the signal at the compter. you have to use some tool do tune the audio files, so what is the tool?
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I'm not even sure what your asking then... tune the audio files, as in your samples? The rendered post-production audio file?
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i didn't understand what the length column means? i can play any note i want at any length that i want. so what does it means?
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That's where you would set any numerical values for anything in a time-based-variable-knob... like filter envelopes, a chorus pre-delay,.... etc.
http://soundcloud.com/short-circuit
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Short-Circuit/446249920482?ref=nf |
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greede
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
82
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 21:30
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On 2010-02-15 18:36, SCircuit wrote:
That's where you would set any numerical values for anything in a time-based-variable-knob... like filter envelopes, a chorus pre-delay,.... etc.
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How would you apply those values to a filter envolope, and what difference would it make?
I cant see how this would help tune anything (sorry if I'm being thick and completely missing the point).
I can understand how this would work with short delays because it is creating notes by the amount of time the audio oscillates, but I cant understand why it would help with a filter envolope because when you press a note on a synth that note will play, the filter only effects the overtones and the harmonics of a sound.
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
112
Posts :
1490
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 21:58
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This whole thread makes my head hurts...
I tune things just by (for example into battery) going semi by semi up / down and finding which one i like.
Math is always helpful but come on we are making music not rockets.
Harmony is naturally wired inside your brain, when it feels good it is good. you don't need hours of tweaking, it only takes seconds.
Also, sometimes being a little off the mathematically correct value gives it a more natural feeling... i really won't be synching all my oscs, lfos and envs to exact numbers i believe this limits a lot the creative process. |
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dj chichke
Chichke
Started Topics :
83
Posts :
705
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 22:02
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On 2010-02-15 21:58, aciduss wrote:
This whole thread makes my head hurts...
I tune things just by (for example into battery) going semi by semi up / down and finding which one i like.
Math is always helpful but come on we are making music not rockets.
Harmony is naturally wired inside your brain, when it feels good it is good. you don't need hours of tweaking, it only takes seconds.
Also, sometimes being a little off the mathematically correct value gives it a more natural feeling... i really won't be synching all my oscs, lfos and envs to exact numbers i believe this limits a lot the creative process.
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you want your kick and bassline to be like rocket on the dancefloor. don't you? |
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
112
Posts :
1490
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 22:07
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Whatever works for you man. |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
80
Posts :
3207
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 22:13
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the thing is : each step of modification,each effect,each plugin all is changing the picture as well as the frequency.
I'm talking about the same note as an example.
It is not like ok my first note is a (for example)and no matter what I do it will be an a to the end.
Even a bit of filter modulation changes the note it can turn from a to D with some cents etc.
I think it is quite personal thing how one regards making music.I like to have clear sense in it beside the liking effect that is one of that reasons why this is interesting me after reading tons of threads about cosmic phiolophical somethings,I'd like to have some eazy explainaitions for people like me that would love to tune their frequencies.
I already learnt some stuff here in this thread,can only thank for those good spirits.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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dj chichke
Chichke
Started Topics :
83
Posts :
705
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 22:28
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On 2010-02-15 22:13, TimeTraveller wrote:
the thing is : each step of modification,each effect,each plugin all is changing the picture as well as the frequency.
I'm talking about the same note as an example.
It is not like ok my first note is a (for example)and no matter what I do it will be an a to the end.
Even a bit of filter modulation changes the note it can turn from a to D with some cents etc.
I think it is quite personal thing how one regards making music.I like to have clear sense in it beside the liking effect that is one of that reasons why this is interesting me after reading tons of threads about cosmic phiolophical somethings,I'd like to have some eazy explainaitions for people like me that would love to tune their frequencies.
I already learnt some stuff here in this thread,can only thank for those good spirits.
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i understand what your talking about. few weaks ago i made very wired and cool loop from hh and flanger but it was totaly out of tune and wasn't fit the track. so after few days i deleted this channel track because i didn't succeed to make it fit the track. i used analyzers but it still sounded out of tune and i didn't believe the analyzer.and i thought that every thing i change at the flanger change the tune randomly. so you acttualy tell me it isn't true? could i tune it with formulas by setting the right delay time at the flanger? |
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SCircuit
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
66
Posted : Feb 15, 2010 23:10
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How would you apply those values to a filter envolope, and what difference would it make?
I can understand how this would work with short delays because it is creating notes by the amount of time the audio oscillates, but I cant understand why it would help with a filter envolope because when you press a note on a synth that note will play, the filter only effects the overtones and the harmonics of a sound.
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That was an exception, not filter envelopes I was thinking faster than I was typing. Haven't got it to work with that, and couldn't go back to edit the second time.
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Math is always helpful but come on we are making music not rockets.
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Like dj chichke said... you want your bass and kick to be like rocket's?...lol
I had to approach it in a more mathematical way to compensate no (real) use of my monitor system for the last 3 years. after a couple of hours programming using only my headphones, my ears would start to not pick up gradual changes from not haveing the headroom for the sound waves coming out of a good monitor system. I'm also a commercial electrician by day, and run numbers verifying blueprints to laborers actual work, so it was a natural step for me, and made a significant improvement in my post production audio file.
Music is more feeling to a musician than it is to an engineer. But to an engineer it's about the numbers.
You can have a really good musician that sounds like crap or a bad musician that sounds really good because of that.
Putting out something professional has a good mix of at least both. If I'm wrong flame me what can I say.
I've put out a few metal productions before and (really) just started learning about producing psytrance within the last 2 years because I wanted to blend the two.
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Also, sometimes being a little off the mathematically correct value gives it a more natural feeling... i really won't be synching all my oscs, lfos and envs to exact numbers i believe this limits a lot the creative process.
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Couldn't agree with you more, but this is prepping for post production. What I do is set my values.... perform the piece, and then tweek away. I used this method with my current project, and I think my music still has a great deal of "feel" to it.
http://soundcloud.com/short-circuit
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Short-Circuit/446249920482?ref=nf |
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