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FX as Inserts vs Sends/Returns
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 16, 2010 10:57:21
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Relatively simple question:
When you apply FX (flanger, phaser, reverb, delay etc), which ones do you find work best as inserts and which work best as sends?
I know that there aren't general guidelines for this, but for instance I know that a lot of producers use 2 reverbs and 2 delays as sends - surely there are other favorites out there that people wouldn't mind sharing?
To get things rolling, here is Billy Cosmosis' answer when I asked him on Facebook and he was kind enough to give this great response...
Me: ", I would love to pick your brain on your send FX/chains- Wouter said he uses two delays and two reverbs as sends, but you had mentioned in a prior video that you use something like 12 or so on each track! I have been dubbing out in Ableton using delays sent to themselves and other chains...and that's a lot of fun, wondering what other cool stuff lurks in the world of sends  "
Bill: " Most are set up in my template mainly for convenience, so once I get started on a project and need to apply an effect to something, I can just choose the appropriate send, tweak it to suit and then (often) bounce the result. My using a lot of sends is probably a hangover from having learned mixing on an analogue console..."
Me: " I am attempting to set up a project template in Ableton with standard kick/bass/percs/leads/pads/fx etc, and I'm trying to flesh out my essential sends - a couple reverbs, couple delays, distortion etc. It seems to me that using a send has a much different sound than if you were to use the same effect directly on the channel itself. For instance, a delay sent to itself sounds different than just two delays stacked on each other, so in my mind an essential send would be a couple delays like that. Do you have any other particularly cool send FX chains that you use often, or that sound unique in that the effect is only or more easily achieved via sends and not inserts on the channel?"
Bill: "Will, couple of things: generally speaking processors fall into two categories: "Effects" and "Signal Processors".The distinction being that with Effects you add a portion of the effect to the dry signal e.g. delays, reverbs, chorus, phasers , flangers etc. ( note that these are usually time based effects).
With Signal Processors you process the whole signal (e.q's, compressors, distortion, redux modules, saturators, bit crushers etc.) Time based effects work best on a send, Signal Processors work best as an insert. There are exceptions - especially in experimentally based modern dance music one should feel free to experiment and break the rules... but thye distinction generally holds true.
"a delay sent to itself sounds different than just two delays stacked"
Delays sent to themselves can also sound lousy, depends on the delay. In the hardware world my old Alesis Quadraverb 1 sounded fabulous with the delay sent to itself, as the input circuit was analogue and saturated in a very pleasing way. The Alesis Quadraverb 2 was a disaster in the same role - an awful squealing, comb filtered mess of uncontrollable feedback. (they "upgraded" the input stage as one of the improvements) Can be the same with plug-ins too - try a few different ones, some have a saturation stage. Another tip: if you're gonna do the dub delay loop thing in hardware or software make sure that you have the feedback control on the delay set to zero (or close to zero) and do all the feedback via the (re)send on the delay channel. It'll sound much nicer and you'll have more control that way."
  If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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1659
Posted : Sep 16, 2010 17:06
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Many thanks to both Willams! 
Another advice gem for a pro and a newbie alike. |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 17, 2010 22:01
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 17, 2010 22:37
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 17, 2010 23:03
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no offense dude, but that answer is extremely short, and a much better version with actual explanation with reasoning and terminology was already posted above :\
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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SineFreq
Started Topics :
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139
Posted : Sep 17, 2010 23:29
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Woah thank you brother William! This is priceless I have been trying to learn analog mixing and have all the other things down except the specifics on delay routing. I've been using a mackie 8bus board and I own a quadraverb (and Q2). What Billy said makes a tremendous amount of sense to me, because I never could get the Q2 to sound right. I love the idea of adding the sends already setup in your template. That really kills work flow doing that every time I want to just get some sound out of me. As for using sends vs inserts. I find it easier to place the sound more easily and then be able to fine tune that sound even further, than I can with using inserts. I like having multiple stages where I can shaped an effected sound with eq's also I find the pre/post fader to be very important for the placment of certian types of sounds.. This is especially good with reverb like Dija said. I have been using mainly only sends for effects and inserts when signal processing. I didn't know that's what I was doing but what Billy posted makes things way more clear to me. I find this works incredibly well.
Come on Isratrance! Lets build on this
I have some things to say on what I have noticed and learned from the ways you can think of what you are doing when routing some send effects. I am just unsure of how helpful it would be.
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SineFreq
Started Topics :
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139
Posted : Sep 17, 2010 23:46
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If we all pick each others brains I am sure a lot of really great information will arise. Think about all of the stuff about producing that you have forgotten. Wouldn't it be awesome to get a lot of that back If someone were to ask me some questions on this topic I would really appreciate it, because it would make me get a lot of what I feel and know about production out of my head and out here where we can all use it
Cheers!
Will what have use experienced from this conversation with Billy that really stands out to you?
Have you gotten a template worked out? If so, how's it been going? |
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Alekzis
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81
Posted : Sep 18, 2010 09:10
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Another reason for using sends is when using hardware..... you don't want the effect to add color to your dry signal.
I don't really know if that happens in virtual mode, but i don't think so.
I'm using sends mostly, cause you can automate the send and make your life easier for making tricks and stuff and ofcourse because you can send more than one track!!!
Now about the analog-style feedback delay. i can't achieve this wonderful dub-like feedback that you can make with hardware stuff. First of all i use cubase and it is feedback secured or something. i can't send something to something else that will cause feedback. and i HATE that. my opinion is that for time effects hardware is the way to go.
do you guys make this dub-like feedback with vsts? |
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Upavas
Upavas
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3315
Posted : Sep 18, 2010 10:58
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I don't use sends often, except maybe to rout something back to itself. I used to do it a lot more to save cpu, eg one reverb for several fx tracks, not since my new computer though 
For delay feedback Ohmboys comes in handy.
In FL I can decide how much of a plugin to apply in each chain, so it saves me from all that routing...
Thank you for posting this!
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 18, 2010 11:42
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When I wanna replace a sound with a new soundcolour than I use an insert if I want just add a bit to the signal than sends.
I use sends quite often and often I like the sends with prefader on ,where the line in channel that uses that send signal is down.
Reverbs and Delays for sends are standard.Dynamics etc in inserts.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 20, 2010 09:00
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BTW, dub delays/feedback loops are obscenely easy to do in ableton. Add simple delay set to 3/3 or 4/4 timing, 50% feedback 50% wet, enable the send within the return track, set to 75% and tweak from there. Add different FX before and after the delay for funzies
I keep meaning to make a template but my production is still very experimental as I am still very much in the beginning of developing a workflow, and at this point setting up a feedback delay is very quick...however if I set up a send chain that works very well I save it in a rack and eventually I will have enough cool shit for a template to be worth it
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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1397
Posted : Sep 20, 2010 11:35
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antares filter delay is very nice and easy
i recommend it !
use a send and use only 100% wet signal with stereo widening with care it is easier too open and close effects or controling the gain amounts that way and even eqing and other stuff  sends is the only way for me adding effects
http://soundcloud.com/magimix-1/chilling-forest-whispers
Wierd shit happens :) |
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
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483
Posted : Sep 20, 2010 15:17
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 20, 2010 23:40
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Quote:
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On 2010-09-17 22:37, dija wrote:
things like reverb are usually best as a send. anything you want to mix dry and wet with basically use a send. if you want it all wet use an insert.
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that answer is not particulary right...usually you want to use fx like reverb delay or whatever as fully wet on a send since nothing of the original sound will be heard through the fx channel..wich comes in very handy if you send several signals to the chain.
as insert you use it usually dry since the whole signal can pass through without dirsturbing others ..
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
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187
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5292
Posted : Sep 21, 2010 09:48
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I only have reverbs as sends, typical trance template is 4-5 different reverb algos, from tight to long lush.
Bare in mind that I also use some reverb algo as an insert to sidechain the fuck out of.
Everything else is as inserts, the reason behind this is because I want to EQ and compress every channel individually and that includes the FX that are stacked on each channel.
Other than that there is a substancial amount of automation that I do on flangers, delays, bit crushers, of individual tracks. Doing that kind of automation on buss effects, would affect every channel that was sent through them. And a lot of times the automation is very brutal, and I need to do that on one, (or more, but in different amounts) channel.
Thankfully my quad MacPro can handle such tasks (the logic plugs are very CPU effective as well), so its mainly inserts on my end.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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