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Fletcher Munson Curve and Relative instrument levels
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Spencer
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 19, 2006 13:52
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Ok so I have been reading a lot about how our brain perceives different frequencies across the spectrum, and have a fair idea of the Fletcher Munson curve.
My question is this...how does the Fletcher Munson curve relate to the different levels on instruments and elements in a trance track?
Where do people normally start setting there kick and bass, and what sort of difference is there in volume for each of the other parts of the track, for example percussion like open hihats, snares etc and for synth parts and atmospherics?
I have been experimenting with different variations and would like to get some feedback. Obviously this is very subjective and I expect everyone will have some variations, and I'm sure each genre of music has a different type of balance of levels, but there must be some sort of level guide that the pro's use when they mix.
Any thoughts??? d-_-b |
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sideFXed
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 19, 2006 15:05
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I'm everything else than a pro when it comes to mixing... but as I tried to gather as much information as I can in the past months I can try to give you some hints.
a good way to find out about levels is a spectrum analyzer. give waves paz analyzer a go or voxengo span (free) should do okay aswell..
now fire up some released material, a record you like and think it does have good mixing/mastering...
soon you'll find out that the kick/bassline combo takes up all the lower frequency space and that a peak around 60-64 hz arises. the kick.
headroom -> always mix that you've got a headroom of -3 db left. that's the sum of all parts.
aim for -7 db for the kick and about -12 to -7 db for bassline. All these numbers should be a point to start, as your ears are the deciding factor.
group both kick and bassline on a group channel and keep a look at the spectrum analyzer. now check for rms. Normally I'm pretty happy when kick and bassline together gives me a result of -10 rms ... I'll make those things louder with a compressor (or two) and a limiter at the end.
for percussion and fx work there's not much to say, as it depends much on the style. some mix percussion hotter, some empathize them less. a good level to start is about -11 db and from there tweak with your ears to about -8 db. maybe a compressor with fast attack and release and a ratio of 4:1 can bring things quite nicely into the foreground.
leads are likely a very important part of your mix, so aim at -10db to -8 db. be creative...
take care that you hear everything in the mix, most of the time I get good results while mixing at an overall low level so your ears are focused. at high volume it's harder for me to decide if something is burried in the mix.
tools like panning, eq and compression will enable you to make the perfect mix.
okay now please correct me if I'm wrong guys. I'd love to hear more.
 soundcloud.com/epsylohm |
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br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 20, 2006 09:04
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A good mix will sound good both at low and high volumes. While this might seem to be a matter of setting faders, a lot of time it's about sound selections and tone colors. In fact there are many sounds (especially bass sounds) which you can compress to within an inch of their lives and set fader balance perfectly, and they will never sit right.
Generally the earlier in the process you can fix a tonal balance or mix problem, the better off you are. Faders are late stage, sound selection and sequencing are early. If it doesn't at least sound good in MIDI, it's probably never gonna sound great in audio. |
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 20, 2006 14:03
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I mix at the same level (about conversation level) when making a track and when it's finished i play it loud a few times for a few minutes at a time, checking the most important balances and making final adjustments. Then after about 2 weeks i listen back to it at conversation level and again at high volumes to hear and fix things i hadn't heard before.
Just make sure it sounds at it's best at really high volumes, because that's what people will be hearing at parties.
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MonasticSquid
MonasticSquid
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Posted : Mar 20, 2006 16:37
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 Booyakka Ra ...
hmm... sorry guys, I am following this thread as its got an interesting point....
but so far none of the answers address the question asked by Spencer!!
Question: "how does the Fletcher Munson curve relate to the different levels on instruments and elements in a trance track"?
or to ask another way:
"because our ears are sensitive to different freq. ranges.... IF we put a HIGH HAT and a KIK both at 0.00db...... even though they have the same 'power/energy' on the mixing desk... the HAT will appear louder to our ears as we are more sensitive to this Freq range. In order to make a track where all elements sound balanced in the mix ~sounds with higher freqs will have a lower 'fader volume' than low Frq. sounds.! What, (in your experience/opinions) is a general rule of thumb for these settings ??? (for example: Kik -2db / Bass -4 / low pads & leads -5db / Snares mid perc -5db / hats/tambs etc -12db.... )
... now I think that is the question being asked (and my answer is in there somewhere) 
(Fletcher Munson..... wtf hehe....)
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www.myspace.com/monasticsquid
www.alchemyrecords.co.uk |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Mar 20, 2006 18:57
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The F-M curve is intellectually interesting but irrelevant (IMO) when making music, as you mix your track so that it sounds good - which automatically means that the frequencies follow the curve or something similar. Anyway it's misleading to talk about mixing certain instruments at particular levels as many sounds contain sonic components across the freqency range. Should I mix my kick so that the bass portion is at -2dB, or so that the click portion is at -5dB? How about this massive lead sound that extends between 300HZ and 12K? See what I mean? Knowing about the F-M curve doesn't help us one bit when mixing.
Forget the curve - it's Too Much Information. Just mix your track so that it sounds good.
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 20, 2006 20:19
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hmmm... check your mix in different systems and at different levels...
roll a joint or STFU :) |
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FluoSamsara (Oxygen)
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Mar 20, 2006 22:02
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The Fletcher and Munson experiences tested how human hearing perceives the volume of sound at diferent frequencies.
What they found was that at lower levels we perceive mid frequencies much louder than low frequencies, and the higher the volume, the flatest the frequency response of our hearing.
Some "standart" ISO values have been created having in mind the Fletcher and Munson Curves (also known as "Equal Loudness Contours"), these are known as Phon lines, but the main purpose of this is to test equipment.
heres a picture of a graph with ELC phon lines
http://www.ethnomusic.ucla.edu/courses/ESM172a/Files172A/172%20Images/EqLoudCon.JPG
This won´t give you any formula on how to EQ your sound or nothing like that....its just good to have a notion about this when mixing so you will know you are more sensitive to certain frequencies than others at low levels.
And like sys said, always check your mix at different levels.
boomz |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Mar 21, 2006 00:06
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Quote:
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On 2006-03-20 18:57, Colin OOOD wrote:
The F-M curve is intellectually interesting but irrelevant (IMO) when making music, as you mix your track so that it sounds good - which automatically means that the frequencies follow the curve or something similar. Anyway it's misleading to talk about mixing certain instruments at particular levels as many sounds contain sonic components across the freqency range. Should I mix my kick so that the bass portion is at -2dB, or so that the click portion is at -5dB? How about this massive lead sound that extends between 300HZ and 12K? See what I mean? Knowing about the F-M curve doesn't help us one bit when mixing.
Forget the curve - it's Too Much Information. Just mix your track so that it sounds good.
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well i tend to agree, but on the otherside, there are people who makes terible mixes, and they could use this information to understand how we perceive sounds in different freqs.
so not a total waste to get a little know how about it..
i think MonasticSquid said it well..
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Mar 21, 2006 01:07
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Mar 21, 2006 14:41
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Yeah, but if you make a brilliant mix at a low level, it may sound not so brilliant at high levels. So IMO the FM take home message is that you should also check your mix at a higher level before you send it away.
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Mar 21, 2006 23:17
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ucc
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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316
Posted : Mar 22, 2006 04:47
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it's a conspiracy Colin, if i was you i'd be hidden already lol  |
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Spencer
IsraTrance Junior Member
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42
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Posted : Mar 22, 2006 14:05
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Great to see some interest in this topic...Monastic Squid hit it on the head with his explanation for me and an example was helpful...I agree with Colin that you don't need to be an computer scientist to understand the sound, but to be honest every little bit of information that makes your mixes one step closer to a great mix is important...and for a lot of beginners this isn't known about how you perceive frequency loudness at different volumes..
viva la spanka |
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MonasticSquid
MonasticSquid
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359
Posted : Mar 22, 2006 14:18
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......the Fletcher-Munson curve is totally irrelevant....
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Quote:
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....a good mix will automatically conform to the F-M curve
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(is there a contradiction in there...it feels like it when I read it...)
U cant say that it's irrelevant... all knollege is relevant... even if it's in the context of 'knowing that you dont need to know about it'!... then its better to know than to not know.....
to my logical mind... if I learn that 'a human's perception of volume is linked (through the F-M curve) to the sound's own frequency' (even if I dont fully understand the science of it).... then its only a small step in 'reverse engineering' to realise how my mixing desk flashy lights should be sitting relative to each other based on that fact...SO... (based on the idea that all channels are arranged in Freq.order, Left to Right, Low Freqs to High Freqs~like a piano keyboard) ~ using the F-M curve "as a rough Guideline"... its seems pretty logical that all the flasy lights on the mixer will roughly fall in a 45 degree line , Left to Right, top to bottom ! ......
... I guess this gives a 'rough picture' of how things should be sitting in the mix.... as indicated by the F-M curve, as asked by Spencer.....
thats IMO
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www.myspace.com/mtheoryuk
www.myspace.com/monasticsquid
www.alchemyrecords.co.uk |
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